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  1. #61
    Quote Originally Posted by Jerichoholic_92 View Post
    In days gone by absolutley that would get you heat, but since the days of Rock and Stone Cold the heel/bayface division isn't so black and white. It has moved into a grey area. They would act stereotypicaly 'bad' but would get cheered. Which is the point I made, part of the audience will cheer him, part will boo. So you can call him a heel if you so desire, but he is in the same position as Cena and Rock. Would you consider them heels?

    As I said, I interpret, Heel: Bad guy who people boo. Babyface: Good guy who people cheer
    I'm not trying to disagree with you, but your statement is intriguing. So are you saying that the crowd dictates a heel or a face? So, someone like Sandow and Vickie who get booed out of the arena by your definition is a heel. While people like DB, Punk, Cena, Ziggler, Jericho, Miz, Just for example are tweeners cause half the crowd cheers for them?

    It's not a right or wrong answer in my book or a set up question. I'm genuinely curious as to your definition. I really never heard of it defined like that, so it's different seeing it from your eyes.



  2. #62
    Quote Originally Posted by Fan4Now View Post
    How does anyone know, Punk turned heel, bc of The Rock, or Cena? Maybe, it's because, Stone Cold will return, and that's why. And who says, Punk will still be, WWE Champ, at the Rumble, to face Rock? I like Punk Face/Heel, but everyone hates on Rock, because he put movies 1st. Seems to me, someone IWC loves to death, Austin (Who I like too) did that tonight. Filming "Grown Ups 2", took precedent over Raw 1000. I'm not mad at Rock or Austin, I'm glad for them, but I'm only saying it, for those who hate on Rock. Where's Austin's ridicule? I doubt WWE, did NOT, try to, contact Austin. I know, they wanted him. So what, he just said NO? No, it's obvious, a movie held him up, or maybe Redneck Island (Season 2). But maybe, he's coming soon, and that's why Punk turned, because I don't think SS will be Rock/Punk, or the Rumble. I think SS will be, Cena/Punk, MITB Cash In. (News did say, they'd find a way, for Cena to keep MITB, after last night = Show's interference), and Cena will win, the WWE Title at SS, which Rock will win at RR, and Cena will reclaim, at WM 29. You might say, "They said 1 Time Only?" Did you forget WWE, tried to make everyone forget, Taker/HHH WM 17? Rock went over, so Cena, will get a turn.


    (In my opinions)
    1. SS will be when Cena really cashes in (News did say, they'd find a way, for him to keep it, after last night = Show's interference)
    2. SS will probably be: Cena vs Punk (MITB Cash In = Cena wins)
    3. Rock might not be there. Ifso, he may wrestle Show
    4. Austin's probably gonna come soon, as WWE knows, fans wanted him, and obviously something, got in the way tonight.
    5. Maybe that's really why Punk turned, bc I really think it'll be Cena/Punk (MITB at SS)

    PS: I like Punk, as a entertainer/wrestler, but overall, he's real cocky. I could handle cocky, but he's a Hypocrite, in so many ways. Hating on Chris Brown (who I do NOT like) for beating Rihanna, but praising Austin, who beat Debra, and giving the Hardys (Not defending them - It's an example) hell, for their poor choice drug habits, but publicly praising Scott Hall (who is also, a drug head/alcoholic). He just rubs me, the wrong way, outside, of his work. By the way, he is a great mic worker, but ANY pissed off wrestler, can get on a mic, and tell secrets, about how cutthroat the backstage is. Many do it, on Youtube shoots, because unlike Punk, they don't threaten to quit, unless they're given a green light, to bad mouth Vince, and his family, publicly, and NOT get fired.

    In closing: I'm gonna get bashed, the hell out of, and read them, and laugh, because it doesn't matter. Most of you, would praise WWE, if every Raw from now on, had ONLY talking/silly skits, and no wrestling, but I'm only telling things, from a different perspective. Now, I'm no pshychic, but if I'm wrong, and Punk did turn heel, because of Rock, who just comes in, and gets top matches/title shots, so what? Just shows, they NEED Rock, because creative, can't make anyone else, a BIG enough star, or they wouldn't need Rock.
    Comma's much?

  3. #63
    Fresh Member jonod's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BadAndy View Post
    So we've all seen it, dvr'ed it, or read about it. My question is, can they keep Punk strong as a heel or will they make him weak? We all know how good he is as a heel. I just hope that he remains a fighting champion and they don't make him cowardly. They essentially just took the whole storyline from TNA with Roode by making Punk question his decision making. I don't mind as long as we get the Punk we all know and love.
    Actually I'd say it was quite similar to his original (wwe) heel turn on smackdown a few years ago. he made a questionable decision against Jeff Hardy and seemed confused for weeks before finally out and out attacking hardy so you could say the Roode turn was borrowing that! :P

  4. #64
    Quote Originally Posted by Playboy Stevie V View Post
    I'm not trying to disagree with you, but your statement is intriguing. So are you saying that the crowd dictates a heel or a face? So, someone like Sandow and Vickie who get booed out of the arena by your definition is a heel. While people like DB, Punk, Cena, Ziggler, Jericho, Miz, Just for example are tweeners cause half the crowd cheers for them?

    It's not a right or wrong answer in my book or a set up question. I'm genuinely curious as to your definition. I really never heard of it defined like that, so it's different seeing it from your eyes.
    In this day age yes I think the crowd dictates. Wrestlers used to be one or the other, heel would win using dirty tactics and babyfaces would be the hero who fought with honour and dignity, that was how it always used to be. But fans, such as oursleves , now are 'smarter'. We realize they are all just playing a part and we tend to cheer for who's work we enjoy the best.

    We have seen people like Eddie Guerrero use his 'Lie, Cheat and Steal' and love him for it, I know I did. These, back in the early 90's and 80's and so on were bad guy traits, but all of sudden it has become cool.

    Thats why I think it is hard to really differentiate between the two now. The old formula doesn't work aswell anymore.

    I think we can all agree that the heel is the person the crowd is 'supposed' to want to see get beat up, and the babyface is the person the fans are 'supposed' to want to beat up the villan. But fans now like the badboy tactics, and dont like the goody goody tactics (well half the crowd anyway.) So really in this day and age, the fans cheer for what they like, and boo what they dont. They are telling the wrestlers who they like and don't, not the wrestlers telling the fans who they should like and not like.

  5. #65
    Black Ninja! Cabers's Avatar
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    His best work has been as a heel so i am really excited to see what he gets upto!

  6. #66
    God scribbler_jones's Avatar
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    I'm feeling the Punk turn myself. Like a lot of others no doubt, I feel that while Punk made a great face, he was being held back. I'd like to see his leash loosened up - or hopefully taken off (I can dream...) Maybe this will mean the return of the infamous pipe bombs...


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  7. #67
    Quote Originally Posted by Jerichoholic_92 View Post
    In this day age yes I think the crowd dictates. Wrestlers used to be one or the other, heel would win using dirty tactics and babyfaces would be the hero who fought with honour and dignity, that was how it always used to be. But fans, such as oursleves , now are 'smarter'. We realize they are all just playing a part and we tend to cheer for who's work we enjoy the best.

    We have seen people like Eddie Guerrero use his 'Lie, Cheat and Steal' and love him for it, I know I did. These, back in the early 90's and 80's and so on were bad guy traits, but all of sudden it has become cool.

    Thats why I think it is hard to really differentiate between the two now. The old formula doesn't work aswell anymore.

    I think we can all agree that the heel is the person the crowd is 'supposed' to want to see get beat up, and the babyface is the person the fans are 'supposed' to want to beat up the villan. But fans now like the badboy tactics, and dont like the goody goody tactics (well half the crowd anyway.) So really in this day and age, the fans cheer for what they like, and boo what they dont. They are telling the wrestlers who they like and don't, not the wrestlers telling the fans who they should like and not like.
    I hear you. It started in the AE when SCSA and the Rock where basically heels that got cheered but they were fighting against their bosses. It was innovating and turned the establishment of heel and face upside down.

    But I still think there is a definite line of heel and face, cooperately, even though US fans, for the most part are smarter and cheer for who we want. This line is kind of clear in the sense that they will tag Cena up with another "face" like Rey instead of tagging him up with ADR. If there was really no face or heel they would just tag up anybody. Also the feuds and matches for the most part are cooperate created faces vs heels.

    I understand what you are saying totally and Punk will still be cheered IMO because he has his supporters. Older fans seem to not care if their fav wrestler turns face or heel. But because of this heel turn of Punk's he will most likely be fresher and be more vicious in the ring and on the mic. He will be the antagonistic as*hole and the perpetrator (a heels M.O.) instead of the victim (face M.O.) His older fans will still like him regardless.

    Again I see your point and if you are judging from the crowd then yes, he is no different from Cena. But he prob will be booked way different than Cena, as a "heel" regardless of his supporters IMO.

    Again your point is valid if your are judging face and heel out of kayfabe.
    Last edited by Playboy Stevie V; 07-24-2012 at 02:51 PM.



  8. #68
    Black Ninja! Dennis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerichoholic_92 View Post
    In days gone by absolutley that would get you heat, but since the days of Rock and Stone Cold the heel/bayface division isn't so black and white. It has moved into a grey area. They would act stereotypicaly 'bad' but would get cheered. Which is the point I made, part of the audience will cheer him, part will boo. So you can call him a heel if you so desire, but he is in the same position as Cena and Rock. Would you consider them heels?

    As I said, I interpret, Heel: Bad guy who people boo. Babyface: Good guy who people cheer
    so at that point is cena not a true face? because if you watch raw on a weekly basis you would know he isn't popular with all fans.. and back in the day when rvd was defined as a heel by pwi standards, he won the most popluar wrestler award what would imply that he was doing bad things and was also the most popular wrestler of the year. I have always defined a heel as pwi just the antagonist to the obvious face.. who does things that if real would cause you to dislike a person. I still like punk but because I know wrestling is fake, if not I would wonder why he hit a guy who was just helping out a guy from getting blindsided unprovoked that's a heel move.
    Last edited by Dennis; 07-24-2012 at 04:23 PM.

  9. #69
    Quote Originally Posted by Playboy Stevie V View Post
    I hear you. It started in the AE when SCSA and the Rock where basically heels that got cheered but they were fighting against their bosses. It was innovating and turned the establishment of heel and face upside down.

    But I still think there is a definite line of heel and face, cooperately, even though US fans, for the most part are smarter and cheer for who we want. This line is kind of clear in the sense that they will tag Cena up with another "face" like Rey instead of tagging him up with ADR. If there was really no face or heel they would just tag up anybody. Also the feuds and matches for the most part are cooperate created faces vs heels.

    I understand what you are saying totally and Punk will still be cheered IMO because he has his supporters. Older fans seem to not care if their fav wrestler turns face or heel. But because of this heel turn of Punk's he will most likely be fresher and be more vicious in the ring and on the mic. He will be the antagonistic as*hole and the perpetrator (a heels M.O.) instead of the victim (face M.O.) His older fans will still like him regardless.

    Again I see your point and if you are judging from the crowd then yes, he is no different from Cena. But he prob will be booked way different than Cena, as a "heel" regardless of his supporters IMO.

    Again your point is valid if your are judging face and heel out of kayfabe.
    Don't get me wrong I agree with you there are still heels and babyfaces, I just meant the situation with Punk is he will still be cheered by a large portion of the crowd. I didnt mean there are no more faces and heels at all. Sorry if it came out like that. Yes I agree there are traditional babyfaces and heels. Just in some situations now I dont think it is as clear, such as the case with Cena and now Punk apparently.

    My two points I was trying to get across where
    1. Just because Punk attacked Rock doesn't mean he has turned heel (he might well have we don't know yet, most likely find out next week) In todays wrestling world it wouldn't be strange for a babyface to act this way.
    2. The fans now will choose who they hate and who they love. I was just getting across the point that if a heel is who we boo, he doesn't necessarily have to act like a classic heel.

    Sorry again if I wasn't clear before.

  10. #70
    Quote Originally Posted by Dennis View Post
    so at that point is cena not a true face? because if you watch raw on a weekly basis you would know he isn't popular with all fans.. and back in the day when rvd was defined as a heel by pwi standards, he won the most popluar wrestler award what would imply that he was doing bad things and was also the most popular wrestler of the year. I have always defined a heel as pwi just the antagonist to the obvious face.. who does things that if real would cause you to dislike a person. I still like punk but because I know wrestling is fake, if not I would wonder why he hit a guy who was just helping out a guy from getting blindsided unprovoked that's a heel move.
    Well it's purely how you decide to define Heel and babyface. I dont think there is a right and wrong. I see a heel as someone the crowd doesn't like and wants to boo. And a babyface as the opposite. You pay money to watch the guy you don't like get beat up. In this day and age that doesn't have to be the person who acts traditionally bad, by attacking people etc. Thats just how I percieve the buisness to work thats all. Like I said just our own interpretation.

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