PDA

View Full Version : Did the WWE create to big of a monster with Cena & Orton?



dub
09-06-2011, 02:08 PM
Since the WWE has built these guys up so high, how hard is it going to be bringing them back down? For example, When Cena was the last guy in the ring with Dolph and Swagger last night, We could pretty much turn the channel because 10000% of wrestling fans knew who would win. Same goes with Orton... When he was wrestling Ziggler a couple of weeks ago and Christian last Tuesday I just pretty much watched the match to see how good Dolph and Christian are (and they are good) BUT i knew Orton was going to win at the beggining of each match. Is that good for business? I mean when it's time to bring these guys down and lose a few matches, is it gonna be believable??? Is that part of the reason why it's so hard to push the younger guys now??? I just wanted to ask the EWN nation and get some thoughts ...

Y2Jryder
09-06-2011, 02:29 PM
Cena and Orton = ratings
If they push guys like Christian or Ziggler to the top I think the ratings will drop..

Asherdelampyr
09-06-2011, 02:39 PM
Since the WWE has built these guys up so high, how hard is it going to be bringing them back down? For example, When Cena was the last guy in the ring with Dolph and Swagger last night, We could pretty much turn the channel because 10000% of wrestling fans knew who would win. Same goes with Orton... When he was wrestling Ziggler a couple of weeks ago and Christian last Tuesday I just pretty much watched the match to see how good Dolph and Christian are (and they are good) BUT i knew Orton was going to win at the beggining of each match. Is that good for business? I mean when it's time to bring these guys down and lose a few matches, is it gonna be believable??? Is that part of the reason why it's so hard to push the younger guys now??? I just wanted to ask the EWN nation and get some thoughts ...

2 words
Hulk Hogan
there is, in just about every "era" of wrestling, at least 1 top babyface, who almost never loses clean, as we have 2 "brands" there are 2 top faces.
I don't think it is a matter of building them up too big. WWE is trying to get all groups to watch, Cena is for the same kids who would have begged and pleaded to get a Hulkamania shirt 20 years ago, Orton is for the slightly older kids that would have wanted a Macho Man Hat (Hell, I still want one!) I may be overgeneralising here, but that actually proves my point.

WWE paints with broad strokes when it comes to keeping fan interest. For every CM Punk or Christian or Daniel Bryan mark, there are 2 Cena or Orton marks, they just make up different demographics.

Just like in most television, the kids want to see the good guy win, that is what makes the Cena/superman comparison so easy, because in a very real sense they are trying to get the same audience, the same kids that watch Goku win no matter how tough the opponent, or Harry Potter routinely trounce wizards that should by all rights be able to turn him into a pre-pubescent puddle of blood in an instant. Cena and Orton are the Hero's Superman and Batman, respectively, while CM Punk is more like The Punisher

Maybe I took that comparison too far, but still imagine CM Punk dressed like Frank Castle for a moment, it's hilarious

Russo swerve
09-06-2011, 02:41 PM
Orton is the man cena is not

S.E. Zero
09-06-2011, 02:45 PM
Cena and Orton = ratings
If they push guys like Christian or Ziggler to the top I think the ratings will drop..

But what happens should one get injured or later down like Edge their bodies just cant handle it anymore?

You to need these 2 behemoths known as Orton and Cena to put over younger talent to show they (young talent) can carry a show even after they are long gone.

Thats the problem. You cant of the right now, you have to think of the future and though they are to be a part of it we need to see talents like Miz, Truth, Swagger, Ziggler, Riley, Sheamus, Rhodes, etc. be put over by them (Cena/Orton) otherwise what happens when they are gone?

Who carries the company? Punk and Jericho are obvious choices but even they might not be enough.

ELNIOJR
09-06-2011, 02:58 PM
You Have no idea how I feel when I see "Cena" or "Orton" in a Thread title. Imagine both of them. Nothing against you BTW :)

Asherdelampyr
09-06-2011, 03:07 PM
You Have no idea how I feel when I see "Cena" or "Orton" in a Thread title. Imagine both of them. Nothing against you BTW :)

Like someone that really needs to hate the top guy for being the top guy?

ELNIOJR
09-06-2011, 03:22 PM
Like someone that really needs to hate the top guy for being the top guy?

Trust me! It's a very COMPLEX thing, and right now I dont feel like challenge my brain, and explain it :)

Asherdelampyr
09-06-2011, 03:37 PM
Trust me! It's a very COMPLEX thing, and right now I dont feel like challenge my brain, and explain it :)

I'm sure it is :P

I think the real question is who is gonna be the next Hulk Hogan/John Cena top face?

Rich Cranium
09-06-2011, 03:43 PM
I'm sure it is :P

I think the real question is who is gonna be the next Hulk Hogan/John Cena top face?

Their love child! jk

Idk, The Miz?

AOF666
09-06-2011, 03:44 PM
I know, look at Orton, he runs his mouth about WWE and no consequences. People mentioned Hogan, but he wasn't as invincible as John Cena!

Asherdelampyr
09-06-2011, 04:02 PM
Their love child! jk

Idk, The Miz?

I don't see The Miz being the "Uncorruptable hero" archetype so much
Honestly I think they are grooming Alex Riley for it. He has the "prettyboy" charm and could pull off the rest easily

Rilla
09-06-2011, 04:05 PM
Miz will probably be it, they are extremely high on him, and his mic-skills are amazing, and he's improving in-ring.

Reichwulf
09-06-2011, 04:07 PM
I'm sure it is :P

I think the real question is who is gonna be the next Hulk Hogan/John Cena top face?


R truth! If he became the next ortan/cena or hogan, i would be thrilled. I love that guys promos, and i'm sure i could listen to him all day long, and not get tired of it.

Asherdelampyr
09-06-2011, 04:34 PM
R truth! If he became the next ortan/cena or hogan, i would be thrilled. I love that guys promos, and i'm sure i could listen to him all day long, and not get tired of it.

I do love the new R-Truth but im not sure how much longer he will be in.

As far as it goes, I think that being the top face is all about charisma, and not as much about wrestling ability, gotta give the kids someone to cheer for.

There are a few people that could do it, but I don't think R-Truth will be put in that position, simply because the WWE seems to like slapping him back down when they are pushing him.

Rich Cranium
09-06-2011, 04:57 PM
I do love the new R-Truth but im not sure how much longer he will be in.

As far as it goes, I think that being the top face is all about charisma, and not as much about wrestling ability, gotta give the kids someone to cheer for.

There are a few people that could do it, but I don't think R-Truth will be put in that position, simply because the WWE seems to like slapping him back down when they are pushing him.

Also the fact that RTruth is getting older. I say the Miz since he does a lot of work outside the WWE as well.

Reichwulf
09-06-2011, 05:01 PM
Still, with the impact he has been making and promos, giving him the torch for a bit would be a nice change for everyone, including the little jimmys, and then nothing else it could be passed down to miz. :D

ratedy2jayz
09-06-2011, 05:16 PM
I actually like Orton after watching his DVD.

KingOrton
09-06-2011, 06:41 PM
-__- another one? I think this is the 3rd one today.

jethro
09-06-2011, 06:57 PM
They are unbeatable,no wonder Orton is all smiling nowadays because he knew hes sit comfortable top of the food chain.

Even if they lose matches they're not gonna lose cleanly.

The Brown One
09-06-2011, 07:13 PM
But what happens should one get injured or later down like Edge their bodies just cant handle it anymore?

You to need these 2 behemoths known as Orton and Cena to put over younger talent to show they (young talent) can carry a show even after they are long gone.

Thats the problem. You cant of the right now, you have to think of the future and though they are to be a part of it we need to see talents like Miz, Truth, Swagger, Ziggler, Riley, Sheamus, Rhodes, etc. be put over by them (Cena/Orton) otherwise what happens when they are gone?

Who carries the company? Punk and Jericho are obvious choices but even they might not be enough.

Jericho could return soon, but I have a feeling it will be his last run - hes over 40, albeit he can still go in the ring better than anyone!
Punk possibly..but I just don't see people looking at him as a role model. He doesn't have that characteristic that Hogan, Cena, Orton and The Miz have.

A.J. The People's Champ
09-06-2011, 07:14 PM
I used to b the biggest Orton fan dating back to the Legend Killer. But quickly lost me as a fan when i read about him saying that Cena has better Mic skills than The Rock....really? Really? REALLY?

Reichwulf
09-06-2011, 07:16 PM
I used to b the biggest Orton fan dating back to the Legend Killer. But quickly lost me as a fan when i read about him saying that Cena has better Mic skills than The Rock....really? Really? REALLY?

lol did he really say that?

KJ PUNK
09-06-2011, 07:22 PM
Jericho could return soon, but I have a feeling it will be his last run - hes over 40, albeit he can still go in the ring better than anyone!
Punk possibly..but I just don't see people looking at him as a role model. He doesn't have that characteristic that Hogan, Cena, Orton and The Miz have.

Wait, what?

The Brown One
09-06-2011, 07:43 PM
Wait, what?

He doesn't click with all the fans like the others could. Hes popular with the adults, but thats it. Hogan, The Miz, Cena and Orton appeal to people of all ages, whether its hate or love. Besides, do you really see Punk kissing the crowd's ass to like him? No, he doesn't need to do that. He earns respect by being himself, and cutting amazing promos. So I don't see him in the same class as those mentioned above. I see him better. But I know they won't put him as posterboy, having him appear on talk shows etc.

maar13
09-06-2011, 07:53 PM
Cena and Orton = ratings
If they push guys like Christian or Ziggler to the top I think the ratings will drop..

Cena maybe, and I just say maybe because when he was not around, the ratings were pretty much the same. Of course, Merchandise is a different story, there Cena is the guy to go.

Orton? Ratings? We shouldn't go there much as far as ratings go, Orton has not delivered as a Champion in either Smackdown or Raw, being a face I mean.


I know, look at Orton, he runs his mouth about WWE and no consequences. People mentioned Hogan, but he wasn't as invincible as John Cena!

That isn't true, Hogan was waaaay unstoppable than Cena, because he had to be for the time he was at. He sell more, yes, but his comeback were waaay stronger than Cena's and his finisher was weaker than Cena's but at the time Hogan played it, it was freaking lethal, over almost everyone.



Jericho could return soon, but I have a feeling it will be his last run - hes over 40, albeit he can still go in the ring better than anyone!
Punk possibly..but I just don't see people looking at him as a role model. He doesn't have that characteristic that Hogan, Cena, Orton and The Miz have.

OK, Cena= Good guy after Raper thug gimmick, Hustle and all that crap, always the best man, OK he can be a role Model, actually his character is meant to be one.

Hogan= Pretty much the same before NWO, Actually Cena's character lie it or not, is based on Hogan's principle. Being good and honorable, hero for everyone.

Orton a role model? The Miz? give me a break. Orton can be a fan favorite but never a role model, his character is not even aiming to that.

The Miz? Over Punk? on any role, he is no way better or had any real thing going for him over CM Punk. Mic Skills? The Miz is good, maybe even better than Orton if you will there, but can't touch Punk in that department.

Ring Skills? Maybe in 5 years he can lace Punks boots but that is about it.

Appearance? Depends of the point of view, from the clear cut one, I give you that, The Miz look like a well educated guy, top of his game (althoug after him using his uncle's Bob suit last Monday put a doubt on my head) if you will. If you go for the edgier look, even Zack Ryder looks tougher than The Miz.

So The Miz as Role Model? not by a long shot, Orton either.


He doesn't click with all the fans like the others could. Hes popular with the adults, but thats it. Hogan, The Miz, Cena and Orton appeal to people of all ages, whether its hate or love. Besides, do you really see Punk kissing the crowd's ass to like him? No, he doesn't need to do that. He earns respect by being himself, and cutting amazing promos. So I don't see him in the same class as those mentioned above. I see him better. But I know they won't put him as posterboy, having him appear on talk shows etc.

Orton doesn't click with kids and The Miz sorry but only click with marks.

Not many people cared about The Miz as Champion, it was not hate, it was people not caring. Don't hate the Miz, but put him on such high standard as in the Big three stars now is laughable.

With Cena, I can give you love-hate relationship.

With Orton, pretty much is the same case than Punk on popularity, not much with kids, big with adults, and for Orton is now some hate from internet fans (who used to love him before) so at some point Punk is getting the same towards people.

And with Hogan at his time, can't debate at all, he pretty much was liked by everyone, I didn't but hey, everyone liked him, literally, young, old, female, male, that guy has tons of charisma.

Mr. McMahon
09-06-2011, 08:31 PM
cena yea, orton no. Orton only recently started being god like. Even in 2010 he was getting his ass kicked by Nexus and The Miz. He wasn't even in the main event in this years WM or last year's WM.

Believe me Orton is not as super as you think. If Orton ends up on the same shows as Cena, he will go back to feuding with mid carders or turn heel. Orton is NOT like Cena. Orton won't stay face for long, it doesn't fit him, he has been face way too long now and will turn heel either later this year or early next year.

The Brown One
09-06-2011, 08:48 PM
Cena maybe, and I just say maybe because when he was not around, the ratings were pretty much the same. Of course, Merchandise is a different story, there Cena is the guy to go.

Orton? Ratings? We shouldn't go there much as far as ratings go, Orton has not delivered as a Champion in either Smackdown or Raw, being a face I mean.



That isn't true, Hogan was waaaay unstoppable than Cena, because he had to be for the time he was at. He sell more, yes, but his comeback were waaay stronger than Cena's and his finisher was weaker than Cena's but at the time Hogan played it, it was freaking lethal, over almost everyone.




OK, Cena= Good guy after Raper thug gimmick, Hustle and all that crap, always the best man, OK he can be a role Model, actually his character is meant to be one.

Hogan= Pretty much the same before NWO, Actually Cena's character lie it or not, is based on Hogan's principle. Being good and honorable, hero for everyone.

Orton a role model? The Miz? give me a break. Orton can be a fan favorite but never a role model, his character is not even aiming to that.

The Miz? Over Punk? on any role, he is no way better or had any real thing going for him over CM Punk. Mic Skills? The Miz is good, maybe even better than Orton if you will there, but can't touch Punk in that department.

Ring Skills? Maybe in 5 years he can lace Punks boots but that is about it.

Appearance? Depends of the point of view, from the clear cut one, I give you that, The Miz look like a well educated guy, top of his game (althoug after him using his uncle's Bob suit last Monday put a doubt on my head) if you will. If you go for the edgier look, even Zack Ryder looks tougher than The Miz.

So The Miz as Role Model? not by a long shot, Orton either.



Orton doesn't click with kids and The Miz sorry but only click with marks.

Not many people cared about The Miz as Champion, it was not hate, it was people not caring. Don't hate the Miz, but put him on such high standard as in the Big three stars now is laughable.

With Cena, I can give you love-hate relationship.

With Orton, pretty much is the same case than Punk on popularity, not much with kids, big with adults, and for Orton is now some hate from internet fans (who used to love him before) so at some point Punk is getting the same towards people.

And with Hogan at his time, can't debate at all, he pretty much was liked by everyone, I didn't but hey, everyone liked him, literally, young, old, female, male, that guy has tons of charisma.

No arguments about Punk being a better wrestler than all those I mentioned above. But look at it this way: Do you really see the WWE putting CM Punk as their posterboy? I would love for that to happen, but it won't. The posterboy is moulded to a certain form, a mould that CM Punk does not fit. The posterboy has a limited moveset, and look the same (NOT exactly the same, so please don't take that literally) - Caucasian, ripped abs, ass kisser and limited moveset. Do you really see Punk in that category? Because I don't.

BlazersDozen
09-06-2011, 09:30 PM
I think they are pushed a little TOO far...well at least Cena is. Orton is on SD so it is a little believable that he should always win as the rest of the talent isn't very over with the crowd. But Cena is just retardedly booked. It took like 3 pedigrees for him to lose to Triple H on RAW once when a pedigree puts outs majority of opponents. Cena kills the credibility of EVERYONE & their finishing moves. Edge had to spear Cena 2 or 3 times AFTER CENA WAS IN THE ELIMINATION CHAMBER to pin Cena & win the WWE title. Come on now! The spear has laid guys out as big as the Big Show. Cena can take more punishment than the Big Show? C'mon creative! Cena killed the credibility of Edge, his spear and the Elimination Chamber all in one moment.

I still like Orton. He performs at a high level every time I see him in the ring. Only a couple changes I don't like is that he's starting to use the 5 moves of doom thing. I wish he'd just go back to random RKOs to keep the match unpredictable. Another thing is his promos, he's being dull & boring. No its not his gimmic. Go look when this gimmic started, when he took out the McMahon family & faced Triple H at Wrestlemania 25, then Vince, Shane & Trips at Backlash & tell me his promos were also dull & boring back then too.

Mr. McMahon
09-06-2011, 09:32 PM
No arguments about Punk being a better wrestler than all those I mentioned above. But look at it this way: Do you really see the WWE putting CM Punk as their posterboy? I would love for that to happen, but it won't. The posterboy is moulded to a certain form, a mould that CM Punk does not fit. The posterboy has a limited moveset, and look the same (NOT exactly the same, so please don't take that literally) - Caucasian, ripped abs, ass kisser and limited moveset. Do you really see Punk in that category? Because I don't.

Here is where you are wrong... HBK. He was the poster boy in the new generation era. Brock Lesnar was the poster boy for a certain time.

The Brown One
09-06-2011, 10:05 PM
Here is where you are wrong... HBK. He was the poster boy in the new generation era. Brock Lesnar was the poster boy for a certain time.

You're right, for a CERTAIN TIME. They weren't the posterboys of the WWF/E for too long. I believe Cena, Orton and The Miz will all be the posterboys for 10+ years in their wrestling careers. Its unfortunate, but true.

maar13
09-06-2011, 11:06 PM
No arguments about Punk being a better wrestler than all those I mentioned above. But look at it this way: Do you really see the WWE putting CM Punk as their posterboy? I would love for that to happen, but it won't. The posterboy is moulded to a certain form, a mould that CM Punk does not fit. The posterboy has a limited moveset, and look the same (NOT exactly the same, so please don't take that literally) - Caucasian, ripped abs, ass kisser and limited moveset. Do you really see Punk in that category? Because I don't.

Nope, actually I agree there, I don't see Punk as the poster boy of the WWE now, I know that but those in tangents I don't think apply for Orton even if they are trying really hard. And for the Miz, I think it might be something in the middle, I think The Miz is utterly bland for that, just from the looks, respect the guy for his hard work, but he looks bland, he simply doesn't seem like The Champion to carry the company (Although I would love for him to prove wrong), that was my point.

But true about Punk not been able to fit that particular mold, would love for them to really look for that edgier look, the lifestyle is not bad, actually would recommend to promote that at some point ( I am not straight Edge, but see the benefits of it) but maybe won't happen.

charmingone28
09-07-2011, 12:40 AM
I look at Cena and Orton the same way I looked at Hogan back in the 80's and early 90's and Hogan said it best when he had his reality show *Yeah I watched it sue me*. You dont have to know how to wrestle you just have to know how to entertain if you punch a guy and or drop an elbow and the crowd goes wild for it you're going to keep on doing it. Hogan when he started didnt know a wrist lock from a wrist watch, and its almost exactly the same thing with Mr. 5 moves of doom Cena and SCSA wannabe Orton.

BIGZrudypoo812
09-07-2011, 01:07 AM
and thats why i like The Rock so much because he didnt care about winning are losing he cared about Entertaining us. he would put guys over all the time and at the same time put on great matches and Cut Great Promos with Mid-Carders to put them over

The Brown One
09-07-2011, 01:09 AM
Nope, actually I agree there, I don't see Punk as the poster boy of the WWE now, I know that but those in tangents I don't think apply for Orton even if they are trying really hard. And for the Miz, I think it might be something in the middle, I think The Miz is utterly bland for that, just from the looks, respect the guy for his hard work, but he looks bland, he simply doesn't seem like The Champion to carry the company (Although I would love for him to prove wrong), that was my point.

But true about Punk not been able to fit that particular mold, would love for them to really look for that edgier look, the lifestyle is not bad, actually would recommend to promote that at some point ( I am not straight Edge, but see the benefits of it) but maybe won't happen.

With the WWE gone PG, this would be a great thing for Punk to keep plugging. But unfortunately there are parents who don't want their kids to look up to a tattooed wrestler. Then there are those who mock him because of his lifestyle.

jordan1995
09-07-2011, 01:21 AM
they younger talent need to get over and its the likes of HHH cena and ortan to do that ...also if jericho returns soon they can put a younger starin a fued with him getting him over and leadingup to wrestle cena and ortan

Mr. McMahon
09-07-2011, 01:29 AM
You're right, for a CERTAIN TIME. They weren't the posterboys of the WWF/E for too long. I believe Cena, Orton and The Miz will all be the posterboys for 10+ years in their wrestling careers. Its unfortunate, but true.

you can guarantee that if HBK didn't get injured he surely would have been the posterboy in the attitude era and post-war era. Lesnar if he didn't leave would be even more super human than Cena

The_Awesome_One
09-07-2011, 05:10 AM
you can guarantee that if HBK didn't get injured he surely would have been the posterboy in the attitude era and post-war era. Lesnar if he didn't leave would be even more super human than Cena

This, Lesner would be the poster boy and Cena would be god knows where.

steveorton
09-07-2011, 08:18 AM
Cena and Orton = ratings
If they push guys like Christian or Ziggler to the top I think the ratings will drop..

^^^^^This^^^^^^

maar13
09-07-2011, 12:54 PM
This, Lesner would be the poster boy and Cena would be god knows where.

In the end robably the roles would have been reversed, at the end Lesnar was a heel and Cena was starting to become a big face heading to the US run, his turn started at Survivor Series, so maybe instead of JB VS Cena you would have had Lesnar VS Cena.

Cena was deemed to be The big Face of the COmpany and Lesnar deeme dto be the biggest villain in Wrestling, Damn at some point he was the real Villain of the whole UFC when he won the title.

COming back now he will great a big good guy, but at the time , he was aiming to be the biggest heel of the WWE, probably would have left as Batista did, the ral question in there would be? what would have been of Batista then?

dub
09-09-2011, 01:48 PM
But what happens should one get injured or later down like Edge their bodies just cant handle it anymore?

You to need these 2 behemoths known as Orton and Cena to put over younger talent to show they (young talent) can carry a show even after they are long gone.

Thats the problem. You cant of the right now, you have to think of the future and though they are to be a part of it we need to see talents like Miz, Truth, Swagger, Ziggler, Riley, Sheamus, Rhodes, etc. be put over by them (Cena/Orton) otherwise what happens when they are gone?

Who carries the company? Punk and Jericho are obvious choices but even they might not be enough.

dat's what I'm sayin straight edge. Thanks for lookin a bit deeper into what i wrote lololol, Even with CM PUnk it really sucked to see that nobody was responding to him?!?!?!? This guy is great but no one really cared cause they just wanted to see Cena and Orton, What's up wit dat? As soon as those two came out the roof darn near blew off the building. WHAT ARE THEY GONNA DO WHEN THESE GUYS GET HURT???????

dub
09-09-2011, 02:10 PM
Like someone that really needs to hate the top guy for being the top guy?

I wanna let everyone know that I don't hate Cena or Orton for being the top guys. I respect everything they have accoplished in the business. Heck all they are doing is taking advantage of their opportunities, but what I am saying is they have been pushed for so long that casual fans have gotten to the point were if it isn't Cena or Orton then.... they don't care. Doesn't that make it much harder for people like a Dolph Ziggler or a Sheamus or a Wade Barrett to shine??? I mean look at the reaction those guys get, it's close to NOTHING when they get in the ring... Even Punk's reaction is slowly deminishing...What gives?!?!?!? PUNK IS AWESOME! (and I'm not just saying that because of his recent run i've been watching him since ROH.) Straight Edge made a good point as well. What is going to happen if they get injured???? Then what????