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View Full Version : Not enough established stars to push the youth movement



Draven
02-15-2011, 09:01 PM
Dolph who?...

Exactly.

I don't care how much ring ability you have, if you aren't pushed up by wrestling along side established stars, you're nobody.

Wwe lost too many great stars in too short a time. The result is a having only a small handful of stars, and a roster full of nobodies. A nobody will have a hard time making something of himself if the only people he defeats are other nobodies.

And what's with all the hate on the older guys? Granted, Flair, Hogan and those guys are totally done, but wresting needs the Nashs, Bookers, and others that can still go. These people are names, and having names is a requirement for building new names.

The problem now is not having too many established stars, it is having too few to get these newbs over and make names for this generation.

Do we really want to have an era where the biggest thing in wrestling is freaking John Cena?

The wwe might have made a mistake bringing the Rock back, as it really illustrates how good they used to be compared to what they are now.


Thoughts?

Iron Ape
02-15-2011, 09:07 PM
Um, isn't Edge an established star, and isn't he working a program with Ziggler right now?

The New Guy
02-15-2011, 09:21 PM
I can't argue with the fact taht WWE lost a lot of talent this year, but I also believe the new guys are getting over
Ziggler is in a program with Edge an he have Vickie, that itself has put him as a good heel, there is always room for improvement although.
Morrison is not involve in any program with an "establish guy" and he's over.

Rich Cranium
02-15-2011, 10:12 PM
Morrison is not involve in any program with an "establish guy" and he's over.

Which means if you have 'it', you don't really need a torch passer!

RomanFlare
02-15-2011, 10:18 PM
Which means if you have 'it', you don't really need a torch passer!

Torch Passers always seem to get ambushed by guys in shiny vests. Not a good idea to use them.

Rich Cranium
02-15-2011, 10:32 PM
Torch Passers always seem to get ambushed by guys in shiny vests. Not a good idea to use them.

Touche dude, touche.

RedDevilSativa
02-15-2011, 10:42 PM
yea i agree wwe do need more big name wrestlers bring back kurt angle and that would be a huge step in the right direction

Rich Cranium
02-15-2011, 10:47 PM
yea i agree wwe do need more big name wrestlers bring back kurt angle and that would be a huge step in the right direction

Not sure if I would bring back too many big name guys as it might hamper the present pushes of guys like Miz, Ziggler, JoMo, Bryan, and ADR! Some of the vets are cool with helping to push the young guns but their are others who would bury them in the blink of an eye.

thedominator92
02-15-2011, 10:53 PM
youth movement? they are pushing king for pete sakes

RomanFlare
02-15-2011, 11:01 PM
youth movement? they are pushing king for pete sakes

But King's so old, he's retro.

Seriously, once HHH gets back into action, Orton gets off his damn high horse, and Cena starts getting booked differently, theres plenty of super over stars to put over younger guys. Of course, that plan hinders on the egos of Evolution's last two remaining attention whores.

The Brown One
02-15-2011, 11:02 PM
It looks like WWE are pushing both vets, and younger stars right now, so I don't see where the problem is. WWE can get new midcarders by bringing them up from FCW, or stopping the jobbers from jobbing. Their young midcarders-high midcarders(Kofi, Cody, Ted, Morrison etc.) can be bumped up to main event status, and stay there once the vets are gone. Vets like Edge, Randy, and Cena are still at the top, which is fine right now, since they are HUGE moneymakers. Theres already 2 young superstars that are in the main event right now- The Miz, and Dolph Ziggler. What more do you want? Cody Rhodes to be world champion? Even at this years Mania, WWE looks to be pushing young stars to the moon, with Miz defending the WWE title against Cena, and ADR(hes not that old) getting a shot at Edge's WHC). Like all good things, having the roster completely filled with only the youth, it will take time. For now, I say enjoy the ride.

eyehatecena
02-15-2011, 11:03 PM
Maybe king is on the way out and they are just giving him a nice send off...idk

But I agree with Rich Cranium statement- don't really need too many vets around- few have really put over others- HBK and HHH have at times, but not many more.
As far as wrestlers having the 'it' factor- yeah their are quite a few out their- talents wise, promo wise...etc....but it comes down to who Vince likes and who he wants to have a push- sometimes he is right, a lot of times he is wrong.

eyehatecena
02-15-2011, 11:07 PM
Cena a vet???

RomanFlare
02-15-2011, 11:10 PM
Cena a vet???

The face of the company is big enough to put young stars over. If Ziggler had pinned Cena cleanly once when they wrestled back-to-back days, this conversation might not be occurring.

eyehatecena
02-15-2011, 11:18 PM
Cena put Barrett over a few matches, yet came out on top at the end. Yes I agree he is the face of the company, but a win over him does not mean much since you know he will win the feud in the end.

The Brown One
02-15-2011, 11:20 PM
Cena put Barrett over a few matches, yet came out on top at the end. Yes I agree he is the face of the company, but a win over him does not mean much since you know he will win the feud in the end.

But it gave the chance for us to see who Barrett is, and what he could do in the ring. I think that feud served its purpose.

eyehatecena
02-15-2011, 11:35 PM
i would rather watch Barrett in the ring, on the mic or wrestling that have to sit through Cenas promos- so yeah, I guess the feud served its purpose, lol.
Cena put over Sheamus too- two people in what 8 or 9 years? great track record- oh yeah make that 3, he put over Carlitto too- but I really do not count that one because Cena took that time off to do his first film

Scottland
02-16-2011, 12:02 AM
First off, you can only push young talent so far & if the fans are not accepting them, then they won't become stars. It's that simple. Some of you have said why doesn't Orton, Cena, Triple H & Edge help put over stars & get off there high-horse. Truth be told, they have put over guys such as Sheamus who Triple H, Orton & Cena have approved. Orton & Cena both put over Wade Barrett. Orton & Cena have both been contributing with The Miz. Edge is contributing with Dolph Ziggler. They all have contributed but if you are expecting guys like Orton & Cena to just fall in the background then you are a damn moron. What many people are forgetting is Orton & Cena are young guys as well. Orton is 30 years of age which is the same age for most of the young guys on the roster & Cena is 34 years of age. Cena is going to be around for awhile & Orton hasn't even truly begun & he's really the future of the company (even Cena has stated this) let alone Orton is the most over.

Another thing people have to face is this...most of today's "young talents" are truly not that good if not just plain suck. Morrison, Miz, Ziggler, Bryan, Kingston & so forth sure have strong elements about them but ALL of them have great weakness. For example: Morrison can't sell a promo to save his life & when tries to be "serious" you actually want to laugh. Bryan is a great in-ring guy but beside that he's about as boring as they come. His promos are weak, he's about as charasmatic as a 2x4 let alone he's just bland. Miz is good on the mic & does decent in the ring but truth be told though, he just doesn't have that certain "it" about it to take him seriously as main eventer. The guy is a mid-card talent at best like the mass majority of them are. If WWE wants to get better find better talent instead of guys that are one-dimensional.

eyehatecena
02-16-2011, 12:17 AM
First off, you can only push young talent so far & if the fans are not accepting them, then they won't become stars.
That really says it all Scottland.
WWE has had guys with great ring work- such as Charlie Hass, Shelton Benjiman- guys who could wrestle circles around 90% of the roster, but most fans want more than that.

SevenCagedTigers
02-16-2011, 04:24 AM
A nobody will have a hard time making something of himself if the only people he defeats are other nobodies.

Dolph Ziggler isn't remotely a nobody. He is at the least, a midcarder.

On top of that, the idea that if a "nobody" defeats another "nobody", that neither guy gets pushed doesn't adhere to history. Shawn Michaels, Mr. Perfect, and Bret Hart were all "nobody" midcarders, and theyre all considered legends now. All three of those guys feuded with one another, and just as in the Bible it says "just as steel sharpens steel, so do two men sharpen one another". You can't argue that Hart and Michaels didn't sharpen one another.

On top of that, look at Rock/Austin/HHH. All those guys were micarders too. At one point, they were all feuding for the intercontinental championship. Rock feuding with Austin didn't turn both guys into nobodies, it merely gave both guys a stage in which to shine.

After that, we had Cena/Orton/Batista, and they were all "nobodys" too.

What I'm getting at is, everybody started somewhere. Everybody worked their way up. Just because Dolph Ziggler hasn't won the big one yet doesn't mean that he's a nobody, nor does it mean that his work ethic and talent should not eventually be rewarded with the championship.

SevenCagedTigers
02-16-2011, 04:37 AM
First off, you can only push young talent so far & if the fans are not accepting them, then they won't become stars. It's that simple. Some of you have said why doesn't Orton, Cena, Triple H & Edge help put over stars & get off there high-horse. Truth be told, they have put over guys such as Sheamus who Triple H, Orton & Cena have approved. Orton & Cena both put over Wade Barrett. Orton & Cena have both been contributing with The Miz. Edge is contributing with Dolph Ziggler. They all have contributed but if you are expecting guys like Orton & Cena to just fall in the background then you are a damn moron. What many people are forgetting is Orton & Cena are young guys as well. Orton is 30 years of age which is the same age for most of the young guys on the roster & Cena is 34 years of age. Cena is going to be around for awhile & Orton hasn't even truly begun & he's really the future of the company (even Cena has stated this) let alone Orton is the most over.

Another thing people have to face is this...most of today's "young talents" are truly not that good if not just plain suck. Morrison, Miz, Ziggler, Bryan, Kingston & so forth sure have strong elements about them but ALL of them have great weakness. For example: Morrison can't sell a promo to save his life & when tries to be "serious" you actually want to laugh. Bryan is a great in-ring guy but beside that he's about as boring as they come. His promos are weak, he's about as charasmatic as a 2x4 let alone he's just bland. Miz is good on the mic & does decent in the ring but truth be told though, he just doesn't have that certain "it" about it to take him seriously as main eventer. The guy is a mid-card talent at best like the mass majority of them are. If WWE wants to get better find better talent instead of guys that are one-dimensional.

Whoa. You just blew my mind. There has been so much Miz appreciation lately that I honestly didn't realize this fact.

I think that people are highly polarized when it comes to the Miz. They either value his work ethic and applaud his perseverance, or they completely despise him and overlook his accomplishments. But its true what you say, he lacks "It".

So what is it the Miz lacks? Is it that he has not had good enough feuds? He had a great feud with Morrison. His promo work against Cena solidified him as one of the best mic men in the company. His feud with Bryan further solidified his position as an entertainer, because ANYONE standing next to Daniel Bryan would look entertaining. So theres 3 great, defining feuds which the Miz was enjoyable in. And now he is in what I believe to be a good feud with Jerry "The King" Lawler.

I think that the homo-erotic pairing of Alex Ryley really dilutes The Miz. Ryley is like a Miz clone. He worships the Miz. And it is an odd pairing because Ryley is in what is essentially a managerial role. Although Ryley on the mic is unnecessary because Miz has excellent mic work. So that leaves Ryley as an odd, un-needed pairing. On top of that, The Miz's reliance on Ryley to procure wins really does nothing to solidify Miz as a dominant, and iconic champ.

The Miz as a human being has a great story. He worked his way to the top. He was considered the dead weight in the pairing of Miz/Morrison and he overcame it through hard work to become the better of the two. And now he is a World Champion. The story of the Miz is that nobody ever believed in him, but he believed in himself. So for him to suddenly have a mouthpiece who supports him seems contrary to everything that happened to the Miz. It thwarts all of his progress to know that he made it this far on his own, and now that he is at the top he needs some help. I think the Miz could have "It" if he did like Cena and stood on his own.

The Brown One
02-16-2011, 04:48 AM
Whoa. You just blew my mind. There has been so much Miz appreciation lately that I honestly didn't realize this fact.

I think that people are highly polarized when it comes to the Miz. They either value his work ethic and applaud his perseverance, or they completely despise him and overlook his accomplishments. But its true what you say, he lacks "It".

So what is it the Miz lacks? Is it that he has not had good enough feuds? He had a great feud with Morrison. His promo work against Cena solidified him as one of the best mic men in the company. His feud with Bryan further solidified his position as an entertainer, because ANYONE standing next to Daniel Bryan would look entertaining. So theres 3 great, defining feuds which the Miz was enjoyable in. And now he is in what I believe to be a good feud with Jerry "The King" Lawler.

I think that the homo-erotic pairing of Alex Ryley really dilutes The Miz. Ryley is like a Miz clone. He worships the Miz. And it is an odd pairing because Ryley is in what is essentially a managerial role. Although Ryley on the mic is unnecessary because Miz has excellent mic work. So that leaves Ryley as an odd, un-needed pairing. On top of that, The Miz's reliance on Ryley to procure wins really does nothing to solidify Miz as a dominant, and iconic champ.

The Miz as a human being has a great story. He worked his way to the top. He was considered the dead weight in the pairing of Miz/Morrison and he overcame it through hard work to become the better of the two. And now he is a World Champion. The story of the Miz is that nobody ever believed in him, but he believed in himself. So for him to suddenly have a mouthpiece who supports him seems contrary to everything that happened to the Miz. It thwarts all of his progress to know that he made it this far on his own, and now that he is at the top he needs some help. I think the Miz could have "It" if he did like Cena and stood on his own.

Damn that was a good post! Maybe if Miz gets rid of Riley he will be forced to rely upon himself, rather than the help of outside interference? Plus Riley needs to stop jobbing, because he was good in NXT, and I can see a future for him after he stops following The Miz around.

K-Jammin
02-16-2011, 10:15 AM
Damn that was a good post! Maybe if Miz gets rid of Riley he will be forced to rely upon himself, rather than the help of outside interference? Plus Riley needs to stop jobbing, because he was good in NXT, and I can see a future for him after he stops following The Miz around.

yeah i liked riley in NXT aswell, but if wwe dont use riley as a wrestler then i think he would make a damn good announcer

SaberToothTigerz
02-16-2011, 10:25 AM
The face of the company is big enough to put young stars over. If Ziggler had pinned Cena cleanly once when they wrestled back-to-back days, this conversation might not be occurring.

but that doesnt make him a vet cena to be a vet would probably need 3 or 4 more years in his career

Automatic
02-16-2011, 12:02 PM
but that doesnt make him a vet cena to be a vet would probably need 3 or 4 more years in his career

I f you are 5 years in a row main eventing WM you are a vet. But WWE doesn't need vets to make the mid carders main eventers, let they make themselves main eventers. If they have good fueds with each other they can both be lifted to main event status, vets aren't neccesary.

ihearvoices
02-16-2011, 12:08 PM
Damn that was a good post! Maybe if Miz gets rid of Riley he will be forced to rely upon himself, rather than the help of outside interference? Plus Riley needs to stop jobbing, because he was good in NXT, and I can see a future for him after he stops following The Miz around.

I say keep Riley With the miz most of the best Heels had help in their matches ...Thriple H,Shawn Michaels, Even look at Cm punk now...Not wining Clean matches and having that outside Help makes Miz a better heel and allows him to be hated more. The only way i see The miz Being Push to a extra level is if Vince makes Cole The Raw GM. That would push The Miz to be a even better heel having the raw GM plus Riley by his side and running Raw. Thats the only "it" thing hes missing. He needs to be Running Raw having the Raw Gm and extra help by his side giving him a longer title Run and they can even Give Riley a good run with it too Giving him the us Title or Having Miz and riley go for the Tag team titles. I believe Miz needs to have this kind of power on raw with the help of the Gm and riley and he would become so hated but at the same time praise for his work also.

Carlos Octavian
02-16-2011, 02:54 PM
I can't get behind The Miz because of Michael Cole. If Cole wasn't shoving Miz down our throats week in and week out, then I think more of his abilities would shine though. I thought his match with Daniel Bryan was damn good on RAW, except for the damn commentary. I mean it's like, we get it, Miz is a heel...get off his nuts Cole.

As far as the other mid carders are concerned, they don't make themselves worth watching. I know everyone hates Cena and Orton, but back when they were doing their Thugonomics/Legend Killer personas, they made people pay attention to them. Do I really wanna watch Dolph because he's dating Vickie?

ShockMaster
02-16-2011, 03:41 PM
I'd have been down with ziggler if his name was different. I swear I read a spoiler that said "ziggler hits the zig zag on edge" and I literally put my head down in shame of being a wrestling fan. I still have faith that Vince and the WWE are going somewhere with all of this, better than the more of the same nonsense.

Rassling_Fan
02-16-2011, 03:49 PM
I swear I read a spoiler that said "ziggler hits the zig zag on edge" and I literally put my head down in shame of being a wrestling fan.

That still sounds better then the Simonizer or "That's Incredible!"

Murphdogg4
02-16-2011, 06:06 PM
Another big problem is no Jim Ross, nobody get's over a wrestler like good ole JR he can give instant credibility.

Scottland
02-16-2011, 07:59 PM
Whoa. You just blew my mind. There has been so much Miz appreciation lately that I honestly didn't realize this fact.

I think that people are highly polarized when it comes to the Miz. They either value his work ethic and applaud his perseverance, or they completely despise him and overlook his accomplishments. But its true what you say, he lacks "It".

So what is it the Miz lacks? Is it that he has not had good enough feuds? He had a great feud with Morrison. His promo work against Cena solidified him as one of the best mic men in the company. His feud with Bryan further solidified his position as an entertainer, because ANYONE standing next to Daniel Bryan would look entertaining. So theres 3 great, defining feuds which the Miz was enjoyable in. And now he is in what I believe to be a good feud with Jerry "The King" Lawler.

I think that the homo-erotic pairing of Alex Ryley really dilutes The Miz. Ryley is like a Miz clone. He worships the Miz. And it is an odd pairing because Ryley is in what is essentially a managerial role. Although Ryley on the mic is unnecessary because Miz has excellent mic work. So that leaves Ryley as an odd, un-needed pairing. On top of that, The Miz's reliance on Ryley to procure wins really does nothing to solidify Miz as a dominant, and iconic champ.

The Miz as a human being has a great story. He worked his way to the top. He was considered the dead weight in the pairing of Miz/Morrison and he overcame it through hard work to become the better of the two. And now he is a World Champion. The story of the Miz is that nobody ever believed in him, but he believed in himself. So for him to suddenly have a mouthpiece who supports him seems contrary to everything that happened to the Miz. It thwarts all of his progress to know that he made it this far on his own, and now that he is at the top he needs some help. I think the Miz could have "It" if he did like Cena and stood on his own.

I can't put my finger on what Miz is truly missing to give him the "it" element but really that's one aspect that you either have or you don't. One thing about Miz is his heel persona is bubblegum-like which right there hurts. Actually, he comes across like a high-school bully of sorts & truth be told, that whole persona just doesn't work in wrestling. If today's roster wasn't so weak, Miz wouldn't be even discussed. Miz plays in motions & doesn't push the envelope like other successful heels did such as The Rock, Triple H, Chris Jericho, Edge & so forth. If I was to advice Miz, I would tell him to study CM Punk who's arguably the best heel in the business right now let alone he's in the same era per se. Punk knows how to make himself standout & makes himself like an actual threat & really gets you to hate him unlike Miz, who is just plain annoying which makes want to change the channel let alone his catchphrase is pathetically weak & comes across as if he's trying to prove he's awesome when in fact it would work better the other way around. I mean The Rock even said it, "if you have to tell everyone else you're awesome then you just plain suck". Miz's gimmick is going to have to change & become more gritty & less bubblegum or else he's going to become an after thought sooner rather then later.

P.S. Every wrestler especially the young guys watched The Rock this past week backstage & for all there sakes, they should study the hell out of his promo because one of the biggest tickets to succeed in wrestling is being able to have the crowd eat every word you say & that comes from an emotional understanding & sense of the audience. The Rock has captured that purely. There is a reason why he's defined as the BEST promo man EVER in wrestling.

WWTNA Mark
02-16-2011, 08:05 PM
yea i agree wwe do need more big name wrestlers bring back kurt angle and that would be a huge step in the right direction

Thats why TNA is doing sooooooooo great!(Sarcasm)

evilgenius780
02-16-2011, 09:28 PM
Another big problem is no Jim Ross, nobody get's over a wrestler like good ole JR he can give instant credibility.

You hit the nail on the head there, JR was great at making any superstar sound interesting, The announcers today need to go back to what he did, use your voice to bring up the performers, not yourselves.

The Big names have done their part to help elevate some of the up and comers (though Orton burying the legacy last year did them no favours), at some point..you have to be able to get over. Miz's title reign was new and interesting at first, but has quickly turned bland and boring. Ziggler just doesnt interest me in any way, shape, or form, despite having a few great matches.

If history has taught us anything, you want somebody to gain credibilty, throw them in a fued with The Undertaker