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View Full Version : Clean wins - you wanted it now you got it...



DarkSide
12-03-2010, 08:44 AM
Anyone else notice that every week we are getting more-and-more clean wins in WWE? (hello TNA, wake up)

I for one, tired long ago of all the run-ins and "cheap" (read: unimaginative) wins, i.e. count-outs, etc. Like in UFC, no matter how tough you are, all it sometime takes is one unexpected punch to knock someone the f out.

Maybe clean wins can sometimes be damaging, for example the current submission guy - Daniel Bryan - tapping out, but its more realistic.

Your thoughts?

Firebrand
12-03-2010, 08:45 AM
ask Jerry Lawler if last monday was a clean win for Miz.

DarkSide
12-03-2010, 08:46 AM
Hi Marky, how you doing?

I said more and more...not all..*sigh*

Firebrand
12-03-2010, 08:49 AM
Marky? WTF is that?

el gabo
12-03-2010, 08:53 AM
Marky? WTF is that?

He's calling you a mark.

Yeah, I think that one of thee most damaging things in TNA matches. It's good to see a DQ or interference once in a while but, clean finishes or maybe not even clean finishes, a grab of the tights. Thing is a 1,2,3 count.

Splattered-Dreams
12-03-2010, 09:52 AM
Watching TNA can get frustrating sometimes, especially when they build up a main event all night for it to finish poorly (happened in last week's 8-man tag match).

Darkside, though, for future reference - lay off calling people names like "marky" (especially after reading one post) because, quite frankly, its you who's the one looking like an idiot. Firebrand was just expressing his opinion, and, after reading some of his posts today, he seems far more knowledable than you.

captainmoonlight
12-03-2010, 10:10 AM
a clean win doesn't always kill momentum.

look at king of the ring 93 (?)

mr perfect still looked great after his match with bret


a roll up is probably the best clean finish for a defeat, specially having kicked out of a finisher at some point

el gabo
12-03-2010, 10:51 AM
a clean win doesn't always kill momentum.

look at king of the ring 93 (?)

mr perfect still looked great after his match with bret


a roll up is probably the best clean finish for a defeat, specially having kicked out of a finisher at some point

Exactly. Unless the storyline absolutely calls for a run-in interference, clean finishes are good.

Rassling_Fan
12-03-2010, 10:56 AM
ask Jerry Lawler if last monday was a clean win for Miz.

Considering there is no rules in a TLC match other then "Be the first one to grab the belt", then it was a clean win.

Though while the cheap wins are annoying, it's good to see a straight finish. Case in point, Bryan Danielson's matches. Always great and most of the time clean.

SilverGhost
12-03-2010, 11:03 AM
I've started noticing it when Del Rio debuted.

I mean you would expect a heel to do some cheap trick(like kicking the guy in the groin while the ref wasn't looking) but he beat Mysterio clean and submission.

Some clean finishes are alright but don't eliminate the drama of DQ and Count out.

Necroyeti
12-03-2010, 11:08 AM
OP, It's funny you should mention UFC, it reminded me of a spot-on tweet Jim Ross made sometime last week: "MMA originally learned from old school pro wrestling. Now wrestling can, not sure if they will, learn from UFC specifically". Perhaps a profound nugget of wisdom in regards to booking and wrestling's image in general, at least.

Going overkill with DQ finishes (and cowardly heels in general) is indeed very outdated and frustrating. DQs and count-outs are not an inherently bad thing, but less is certainly more.

Rich Cranium
12-03-2010, 11:13 AM
I've started noticing it when Del Rio debuted.

I mean you would expect a heel to do some cheap trick(like kicking the guy in the groin while the ref wasn't looking) but he beat Mysterio clean and submission.

Some clean finishes are alright but don't eliminate the drama of DQ and Count out.

I thought during the Mysterio/Del Rio match that surely it was going to end via a DQ, so the clean finish was not only a shocker (being his debut against a vet) but was very refreshing and that's what we need is the unexpected which is really something damn near impossible to pull off nowadays!

SilverGhost
12-03-2010, 11:17 AM
I thought during the Mysterio/Del Rio match that surely it was going to end via a DQ, so the clean finish was not only a shocker (being his debut against a vet) but was very refreshing and that's what we need is the unexpected which is really something damn near impossible to pull off nowadays!

Yeah. I think from that point slowly heels are winning a bit cleanly(grabbing tights for the 3 count)

Del Rio's case is way different because he IS a heel but yet a submission finisher. Can wrestle good and you can still hate him.

thejman93
12-03-2010, 11:26 AM
Darkside, though, for future reference - lay off calling people names like "marky" (especially after reading one post) because, quite frankly, its you who's the one looking like an idiot. Firebrand was just expressing his opinion, and, after reading some of his posts today, he seems far more knowledable than you.

Firebrand, don't get discouraged man, there's more good people on these fourms than there are bad.

SilverGhost
12-03-2010, 11:27 AM
Firebrand, don't get discouraged man, there's more good people on these fourms than there are bad.

LOL

This is true. Calling people "marks" is rather looked down upon in my book.

RomanFlare
12-03-2010, 11:34 AM
Does anyone besides me think that the success and popularity of cashing in the money in the bank (I was always pumped when Punk and Edge won with it, and now Miz) had a negative effect on clean wins? I mean, MitB is almost always a cheap win in my book, attacking a superstar after a big title match (Edge on Cena after the elimination chamber).

And on the topic of not having clean finishes, can we please see Barret win a big match without Nexus running in at ANY point?

SilverGhost
12-03-2010, 11:37 AM
Does anyone besides me think that the success and popularity of cashing in the money in the bank (I was always pumped when Punk and Edge won with it, and now Miz) had a negative effect on clean wins? I mean, MitB is almost always a cheap win in my book, attacking a superstar after a big title match (Edge on Cena after the elimination chamber).

And on the topic of not having clean finishes, can we please see Barret win a big match without Nexus running in at ANY point?

The only one that has cashed in the MITB cleanly was RVD. But yes....MITB can get you a cheap win.

You can see Barrett winning a high profile match without Nexus. Its just Nexus adds drama.

DarkSide
12-03-2010, 11:59 AM
I don't have a problem with trunks being pulled or run-ins, as long as the storyline calls for it.

But it is refreshing to see clean wins.

As for the MITB - I think they should let heels do cheap cash-ins - it builds their momentum. Faces should cash in "clean" though.

captainmoonlight
12-03-2010, 12:11 PM
dont forget stories. i like good wreslting but stories are what count.

chunkkynutzzz
12-03-2010, 12:41 PM
Alberto del rio deserves to make bryan daniel tap...in fact bryan daniel isn't all that great !...

el gabo
12-03-2010, 01:11 PM
LOL

This is true. Calling people "marks" is rather looked down upon in my book.

In many of our books. Marks, idiots, morons are discouraged too.

Taxi Driver
12-03-2010, 01:13 PM
Alberto del rio deserves to make bryan daniel tap...in fact bryan daniel isn't all that great !...

Daniel Bryan is one of the best wrestlers in the WWE today. That's a fact. Though Del Rio is good too

el gabo
12-03-2010, 01:14 PM
Alberto del rio deserves to make bryan daniel tap...in fact bryan daniel isn't all that great !...

Naw, he isn't great. He's the better than great, over the top, off the hook. Dude can do it all, high spots, grappling what the hell more do you want????

johnadah
12-03-2010, 01:20 PM
Considering there is no rules in a TLC match other then "Be the first one to grab the belt", then it was a clean win.

Though while the cheap wins are annoying, it's good to see a straight finish. Case in point, Bryan Danielson's matches. Always great and most of the time clean.

Good point, RF. Anything goes in a TLC match, and that means interference is perfectly legal. Even if it's from a member of the announce team.

el gabo
12-03-2010, 01:33 PM
Good point, RF. Anything goes in a TLC match, and that means interference is perfectly legal. Even if it's from a member of the announce team.

It was tecnically a clean finish but, it still felt cheap. I would rather have Jerry lose like that than for him to have been pinned by the Miz. Must be embarassing for the King to be pinned by him.

Xpacfan
12-03-2010, 01:37 PM
Anyone else notice that every week we are getting more-and-more clean wins in WWE? (hello TNA, wake up)

I for one, tired long ago of all the run-ins and "cheap" (read: unimaginative) wins, i.e. count-outs, etc. Like in UFC, no matter how tough you are, all it sometime takes is one unexpected punch to knock someone the f out.

Maybe clean wins can sometimes be damaging, for example the current submission guy - Daniel Bryan - tapping out, but its more realistic.

Your thoughts?

Uh? So Miz waiting after 2 beat downs on Orton from Nexus and a match with Barrett to cash in his MIB was "clean"?

Please define clean...

DarkSide
12-03-2010, 01:52 PM
Uh? So Miz waiting after 2 beat downs on Orton from Nexus and a match with Barrett to cash in his MIB was "clean"?

Please define clean...

Clean - to win without outside interference, man or chair. For anyone following WWE you would know that clean wins were as foreign as a barbed wire to the groin.

Like I said I had no probs with Miz taking the belt from Orton after the nexus and Wade beatdown. He is a heel and that is what heels do.

Bodom
12-03-2010, 01:57 PM
Uh? So Miz waiting after 2 beat downs on Orton from Nexus and a match with Barrett to cash in his MIB was "clean"?

Please define clean...

The pin itself was clean?

It's not that we're getting more clean wins. We're getting less screw jobs.

thejman93
12-03-2010, 01:58 PM
Alberto del rio deserves to make bryan daniel tap...in fact bryan daniel isn't all that great !...

*facepalm, facepalm, facepalm*

Bodom
12-03-2010, 01:59 PM
Alberto del rio deserves to make bryan daniel tap...in fact bryan daniel isn't all that great !...

You shut your dirty mouth.

Xpacfan
12-03-2010, 02:04 PM
The pin itself was clean?

It's not that we're getting more clean wins. We're getting less screw jobs.

^ This. Clean is when you have an officially sanctioned match that both parties had ample time to prepare for minus the intereferances or illegal pins. The match and the pin was legit but there was nothing "clean" about how Miz went about doing things. So things were not done cleanly on purpose for the sake of drawing heat on Miz as it did when CM Punk and Edge pulled the same move.

Bodom
12-03-2010, 02:06 PM
^ This. Clean is when you have an officially sanctioned match that both parties had ample time to prepare for minus the intereferances or illegal pins. The match and the pin was legit but there was nothing "clean" about how Miz went about doing things. So things were not done cleanly on purpose for the sake of drawing heat on Miz as it did when CM Punk and Edge pulled the same move.

With a MITB, you're never going to get a "Clean" win.

Sans RVD.

Daniel Bryan
12-03-2010, 02:31 PM
You shut your dirty mouth.

LOL made my day

Bodom
12-03-2010, 02:34 PM
LOL

This is true. Calling people "marks" is rather looked down upon in my book.

True.

When you're on a Wrestling Message Board. You don't have the right to call someone a mark.

Xpacfan
12-03-2010, 02:35 PM
With a MITB, you're never going to get a "Clean" win.

Sans RVD.

My point exactly...or at least not if the WWE keeps booking heels to win the MITB.

Bodom
12-03-2010, 02:39 PM
My point exactly...or at least not if the WWE keeps booking heels to win the MITB.

How huge could TLC be if Miz announced ahead of time that he wanted Randy Orton in a TLC match for the WWE title? You've got a month to play on the fact that Miz has Alex Riley and Michael Cole on his side (Miz needs a much bigger entourage, but that's for another rant all together) and Orton has no one.

It works for Miz's character, too. He's the cocky heel with something to prove, and he keeps proving it. You sell tickets and PPVs because people want to see Miz fail. People want to see Orton make Miz eat his words. I know it's an 'old school rasslin' concept, but they seem to be the only concepts that make money.

Give us a huge TLC match where no matter how many times Orton has the thing won, someone in Miz's entourage keeps the match from ending. Let Orton RKO Miz 12 times, only to have to deal with a valet or Riley at every turn. Can you imagine the crowd reaction to that? Finally, Miz wakes up long enough to destroy Orton with the briefcase and gets the belt. His group carries him out on their shoulders like Rocky. A douchebag Rocky. It would be epic.

el gabo
12-03-2010, 02:42 PM
How huge could TLC be if Miz announced ahead of time that he wanted Randy Orton in a TLC match for the WWE title? You've got a month to play on the fact that Miz has Alex Riley and Michael Cole on his side (Miz needs a much bigger entourage, but that's for another rant all together) and Orton has no one.

It works for Miz's character, too. He's the cocky heel with something to prove, and he keeps proving it. You sell tickets and PPVs because people want to see Miz fail. People want to see Orton make Miz eat his words. I know it's an 'old school rasslin' concept, but they seem to be the only concepts that make money.

Give us a huge TLC match where no matter how many times Orton has the thing won, someone in Miz's entourage keeps the match from ending. Let Orton RKO Miz 12 times, only to have to deal with a valet or Riley at every turn. Can you imagine the crowd reaction to that? Finally, Miz wakes up long enough to destroy Orton with the briefcase and gets the belt. His group carries him out on their shoulders like Rocky. A douchebag Rocky. It would be epic.

People would bitch that he is a weak champ forgetting that this is a story.

SilverGhost
12-03-2010, 02:43 PM
My point exactly...or at least not if the WWE keeps booking heels to win the MITB.

That wasn't RVD's case was it? He "cashed" it in on a specific date, not "right here, RIGHT NOW"

Bodom
12-03-2010, 02:44 PM
People would bitch that he is a weak champ forgetting that this is a story.

Sigh.....


That wasn't RVD's case was it? He "cashed" it in on a specific date, not "right here, RIGHT NOW"

Yep. He announced it ahead of time.

thejman93
12-03-2010, 02:49 PM
People would bitch that he is a weak champ forgetting that this is a story.

Having him beat 115 year old Jerry Lawler doesn't make him look stronger.

el gabo
12-03-2010, 02:55 PM
My point is that you can't have the perfect plan that pleases everybody. Miz is either gonna be a douchebag champ with cheap wins and look weak or be a fair player and win cleanly (which isn't the most common thing for a heel character). People are going to hate him more if he cheats, lies and steals (Guerrero was an exception).

thejman93
12-03-2010, 02:58 PM
My point is that you can't have the perfect plan that pleases everybody. Miz is either gonna be a douchebag champ with cheap wins and look weak or be a fair player and win cleanly (which isn't the most common thing for a heel character). People are going to hate him more if he cheats, lies and steals (Guerrero was an exception).

Yeah I guess heels have to be douchebags or else they wouldn't really be heels

Xpacfan
12-03-2010, 03:07 PM
How huge could TLC be if Miz announced ahead of time that he wanted Randy Orton in a TLC match for the WWE title? You've got a month to play on the fact that Miz has Alex Riley and Michael Cole on his side (Miz needs a much bigger entourage, but that's for another rant all together) and Orton has no one.

It works for Miz's character, too. He's the cocky heel with something to prove, and he keeps proving it. You sell tickets and PPVs because people want to see Miz fail. People want to see Orton make Miz eat his words. I know it's an 'old school rasslin' concept, but they seem to be the only concepts that make money.

Give us a huge TLC match where no matter how many times Orton has the thing won, someone in Miz's entourage keeps the match from ending. Let Orton RKO Miz 12 times, only to have to deal with a valet or Riley at every turn. Can you imagine the crowd reaction to that? Finally, Miz wakes up long enough to destroy Orton with the briefcase and gets the belt. His group carries him out on their shoulders like Rocky. A douchebag Rocky. It would be epic.

Yeah, that's old school booking right there and would make too much sense for the WWE to do. It would also prove how good of a champion he really makes.


That wasn't RVD's case was it? He "cashed" it in on a specific date, not "right here, RIGHT NOW".

He said "Sans RVD"...I was agreeing that every other time hadn't been done cleanly due to it being done by a heel.

Xpacfan
12-03-2010, 03:08 PM
My point is that you can't have the perfect plan that pleases everybody. Miz is either gonna be a douchebag champ with cheap wins and look weak or be a fair player and win cleanly (which isn't the most common thing for a heel character). People are going to hate him more if he cheats, lies and steals (Guerrero was an exception).

Of course, I'm just saying that the basis of the topic isn't true because the referanced win wasn't clean at all.

SevenCagedTigers
12-03-2010, 03:52 PM
OP, It's funny you should mention UFC, it reminded me of a spot-on tweet Jim Ross made sometime last week: "MMA originally learned from old school pro wrestling. Now wrestling can, not sure if they will, learn from UFC specifically". Perhaps a profound nugget of wisdom in regards to booking and wrestling's image in general, at least.

Going overkill with DQ finishes (and cowardly heels in general) is indeed very outdated and frustrating. DQs and count-outs are not an inherently bad thing, but less is certainly more.

My worst heel-DQ memories involve William Regal during his "Power of the punch!" storyline where he was feuding with Edge for the IC title. William would win EVERY match with the brass knucks. It was infuriating.

SevenCagedTigers
12-03-2010, 03:55 PM
My point is that you can't have the perfect plan that pleases everybody. Miz is either gonna be a douchebag champ with cheap wins and look weak or be a fair player and win cleanly (which isn't the most common thing for a heel character). People are going to hate him more if he cheats, lies and steals (Guerrero was an exception).

I think cheap wins are what made Jericho look like a weak champ during his first run as Undisputed Champion. I remember that other Superstars would talk down to Jericho during promos and Jericho would look like he was about to cry. He would cheat to win every match. And after every match, he would clutch onto the Championship like it was a baby and he would escape from the ring. I hated Jericho's first run as champion, I never imagined that he could ammount to what he is today. I hope that they allow the Miz SOME degree of clean victories, even though he has all the tools to cheat at his disposal (i.e. being a heel, having a lackey in Alex Riley...)

Rich Cranium
12-03-2010, 03:57 PM
The best cheat and most hilarious imo would have to be Eddie Guerrero when he would take a chair and toss to his opponent and lay down in time for the ref to see what's going on.

SevenCagedTigers
12-03-2010, 04:00 PM
True.

When you're on a Wrestling Message Board. You don't have the right to call someone a mark.

What, exactly is a mark? I mean, I have an idea what it is, but I don't know exactly. Are you saying that were all marks because were all on a wrestling board?

Xpacfan
12-03-2010, 04:08 PM
What, exactly is a mark? I mean, I have an idea what it is, but I don't know exactly. Are you saying that were all marks because were all on a wrestling board?

I believe he was just being sacasitic.

A mark is typically someone who sides with a particular wrestler or organization regardless of what the facts are...that person or entity can do no evil in their eyes. Basically another way of calling someone a Fanboy.

Bodom
12-03-2010, 04:17 PM
I believe he was just being sacasitic.

A mark is typically someone who sides with a particular wrestler or organization regardless of what the facts are...that person or entity can do no evil in their eyes. Basically another way of calling someone a Fanboy.

Pretty much this. We're on a message board, we're all marks. Can deny it all you want but its true. My point being, is that you cant use that phrase in an insulting, derogatory, or condescending manner. Its hypocritical.

IrkenInvader
12-03-2010, 04:19 PM
Bodom is a Punk mark. I'm a Danielson mark. Everyone is a mark for someone.

Xpacfan
12-03-2010, 04:22 PM
I'm a proud anti-WWE until it gets its shit together mark

IrkenInvader
12-03-2010, 04:26 PM
I'm a proud anti-TNA until it gets its shit together mark

Fixed it for you.

SilverGhost
12-03-2010, 04:42 PM
I'm a proud anti-WWE until it gets its shit together mark

What Irken said. TNA isn't put together well.

jamesstrange
12-03-2010, 04:48 PM
That wasn't RVD's case was it? He "cashed" it in on a specific date, not "right here, RIGHT NOW"

Even then the win wasn't exactly clean, Edge cheated and gave him the win as Heyman made the count. I liked the finish but logically it did feel slightly cheap, though mainly because RVD was basically being beaten down by Cena.

As for like the MITB its become predictable that they will cash it in when the champions down and when he's not prepared, which is a good thing sometimes and was but now everyone does it. Mix it up a bit. Have they announce it three even six months in advance and have a long storyline which makes the person cashing it in a star. Also they wouldn't have to win it, that's become boring in itself. You know why not the guy loss the match and afterwards it doesn't matter, because he's been elevated to the main event level or such.

I mean things need to be mixed up and rightly a clean win doesn't discredit anyone. Lets say you got a rookie, lets say even Kaval, if they wanted to really push the underdog thing have him wrestler credible wrestlers and lose, yet have it in lengthy matches! Have them look good, lose but at the same time show they never give up and such. Have the guys even afterwards, even heels maybe look at the guy and even they have to shake their hands because they can't believe the heart of the guy.

Never underestimate the power of the clean win and loss. I think if Cena had been booked to lose clean in his first run and even know people would still respect the guy because of what he'd do for other wrestlers and such.

Xpacfan
12-03-2010, 05:05 PM
What Irken said. TNA isn't put together well.

Its not perfect but it gives me exactly what I want when watching a wrestling show. Fast paced/energetic matches, booking that doesn't insult my intelligence, and edgier promos/storytelling.

I haven't gotten this from WWE in LONG time. Its like being a failed marriage...you love your wife but someone new comes along and reminds you of all the excitement you used to have in your current relationship. While they're definately not as fun as your wife was in the beginning, the instant gratification of nostalgia is enough to satisfy your longing.

Unlike reality, either WWE gets its shit together or I'm leaving it for my mistress (TNA) for my happily ever after...

SilverGhost
12-03-2010, 05:14 PM
Its not perfect but it gives me exactly what I want when watching a wrestling show. Fast paced/energetic matches, booking that doesn't insult my intelligence, and edgier promos/storytelling.

I haven't gotten this from WWE in LONG time. Its like being a failed marriage...you love your wife but someone new comes along and reminds you of all the excitement you used to have in your current relationship. While they're definately not as fun as your wife was in the beginning, the instant gratification of nostalgia is enough to satisfy your longing.

Unlike reality, either WWE gets its shit together or I'm leaving it for my mistress (TNA) for my happily ever after...

1st Bold: I don't know how you can stand Bischoff and Hogan on how they are on TNA. You think WWE is bad....TNA is worse. Downhill of TNA started at BFG. TNA is only watchable BECAUSE of their tag team division.

2nd Bold: Maybe because you refused to watch it? WWE has gotten better in their programming. I watch Raw for Bryan matches because HE CAN GIVE A MATCH. PPVs.....he usually steals the show.

3rd Bold: Explain? This is WWE PG BUT it has its intense moments. If you want it to go back to WWF, that isn't happening unfortunatley.

Rated_PG13
12-03-2010, 05:17 PM
Its not perfect but it gives me exactly what I want when watching a wrestling show. Fast paced/energetic matches, booking that doesn't insult my intelligence, and edgier promos/storytelling.

Edgier, as in, having a felon champion? Edgier, as in, having storylines that change direction every week trying to "swerve" the smart marks, only to make them look like they are producing a terrible horror movie?

Storytelling? Like, "Hey brother - this guy is over because I say he is, brother."...like that?

TNA insults the intelligence of every wrestling fan over the age of 12 rehashing old and failed WCW subplots and clusterfucks. The WWE may not be doing swanton's off of stages or blading every five minutes like present day TNA or WWE circa 1999-2002 did. But to say the WWE hasn't turned a corner this year with compelling television and some really solid wrestling/storytelling just shows your ignorance to the product.

SilverGhost
12-03-2010, 05:32 PM
booking that doesn't insult my intelligence, and edgier promos/storytelling.


Edgier, as in, having a felon champion? Edgier, as in, having storylines that change direction every week trying to "swerve" the smart marks, only to make them look like they are producing a terrible horror movie?

TNA insults the intelligence of every wrestling fan over the age of 12 rehashing old and failed WCW subplots and clusterfucks.

What Rated PG-13 said xD

Xpacfan
12-03-2010, 05:34 PM
1st Bold: I don't know how you can stand Bischoff and Hogan on how they are on TNA. You think WWE is bad....TNA is worse. Downhill of TNA started at BFG. TNA is only watchable BECAUSE of their tag team division.

2nd Bold: Maybe because you refused to watch it? WWE has gotten better in their programming. I watch Raw for Bryan matches because HE CAN GIVE A MATCH. PPVs.....he usually steals the show.

3rd Bold: Explain? This is WWE PG BUT it has its intense moments. If you want it to go back to WWF, that isn't happening unfortunatley.

1st Bold: The Hogan and Bischoff stuff isn't really that bad! They hardly get any tv time and booking is decent. The only real difference I've seen since their arrival is that the X-Division has taken a back seat...something that I'm not too fond with either. Honestly though, I think bringing in at least Hogan was a good idea on TNA's part because the initial exposure was great! It had everyone talking and speculating about the future of TNA. Moving forward will it be a good idea...I just look at as nothing lasts forever and its just another phase of TNA's overall growth. I really think that a lot of fans over exaggerate when it comes to the Hogan/Bischoff thing! The only issues I'm having with it, is like I said, the lack of exploitation of the X-Division and the way their using Jeff Hardy.

2nd Bold: Even though, I've stopped watching the live programming, I still youtube recent matches or go to wrestling sites to watch them...after doing so, I'm still dissatisfied. I just don't want to do this and add to the ratings. The promos are still corny, the matches for the exception of few are still very short and uninteresting and the whole booking still revolves around one story!!! Its still the Raw = John Cena show plus some matches, Smackdown! = World Title feud plus some matches. All the other storytelling is so underdeveloped and looks as if creative isn't even trying! I'm not that impressed with Danial Byran and feel that he's overrated. He's ok in the ring but lack any personality whatsoever...another example of poor character/gimmick development! He's just some generic dude that comes out to bumble bee music to me.

3rd Bold: I no longer have the patience or the time to watch a 2 hour show and get MOMENTS of what I want. I get more of what I want when I watch TNA for 2 hours. The WWE was still great even after it stopped being the WWF. I don't believe in never and am smart enough to know that Vince Mcmahon is first and foremost a business man. As such, if he loses enough money due to unsatified fans or a better alternative then there is always hope that things will get better with the WWE. Vince is just doing what he's doing now due to the lack of competition but I believe that TNA has what it takes to become that competition to push WWE to its limits just as WCW did with the WWF.

xStraightxEdgexSaviorx
12-03-2010, 05:35 PM
He said "Sans RVD"...I was agreeing that every other time hadn't been done cleanly due to it being done by a heel.[/QUOTE]

Not exactly. CM Punk was face when he cashed in. But yeah, every other time.

Bodom
12-03-2010, 05:38 PM
He said "Sans RVD"...I was agreeing that every other time hadn't been done cleanly due to it being done by a heel.

Not exactly. CM Punk was face when he cashed in. But yeah, every other time.[/QUOTE]

Yeah bit it was all part of him turning heel

SilverGhost
12-03-2010, 05:40 PM
Even then the win wasn't exactly clean, Edge cheated and gave him the win as Heyman made the count. I liked the finish but logically it did feel slightly cheap, though mainly because RVD was basically being beaten down by Cena.

As for like the MITB its become predictable that they will cash it in when the champions down and when he's not prepared, which is a good thing sometimes and was but now everyone does it. Mix it up a bit. Have they announce it three even six months in advance and have a long storyline which makes the person cashing it in a star. Also they wouldn't have to win it, that's become boring in itself. You know why not the guy loss the match and afterwards it doesn't matter, because he's been elevated to the main event level or such.

I mean things need to be mixed up and rightly a clean win doesn't discredit anyone. Lets say you got a rookie, lets say even Kaval, if they wanted to really push the underdog thing have him wrestler credible wrestlers and lose, yet have it in lengthy matches! Have them look good, lose but at the same time show they never give up and such. Have the guys even afterwards, even heels maybe look at the guy and even they have to shake their hands because they can't believe the heart of the guy.

Never underestimate the power of the clean win and loss. I think if Cena had been booked to lose clean in his first run and even know people would still respect the guy because of what he'd do for other wrestlers and such.

What I meant is that RVD cashed it in ahead at a specific time, not the usual "I'll cash it in when he is tired" routine. That is WWE's storyline saying "FUCK YOU ECW" when Edge did what he did.

el gabo
12-03-2010, 05:48 PM
What I meant is that RVD cashed it in ahead at a specific time, not the usual "I'll cash it in when he is tired" routine. That is WWE's storyline saying "FUCK YOU ECW" when Edge did what he did.

Memorable.

The "If Cena wins, we riot" sign was priceless.

SilverGhost
12-03-2010, 06:00 PM
Memorable.

The "If Cena wins, we riot" sign was priceless.

Knowing ECW fans, they would.

xStraightxEdgexSaviorx
12-03-2010, 06:02 PM
1st Bold: The Hogan and Bischoff stuff isn't really that bad! They hardly get any tv time and booking is decent. The only real difference I've seen since their arrival is that the X-Division has taken a back seat...something that I'm not too fond with either. Honestly though, I think bringing in at least Hogan was a good idea on TNA's part because the initial exposure was great! It had everyone talking and speculating about the future of TNA. Moving forward will it be a good idea...I just look at as nothing lasts forever and its just another phase of TNA's overall growth. I really think that a lot of fans over exaggerate when it comes to the Hogan/Bischoff thing! The only issues I'm having with it, is like I said, the lack of exploitation of the X-Division and the way their using Jeff Hardy.

2nd Bold: Even though, I've stopped watching the live programming, I still youtube recent matches or go to wrestling sites to watch them...after doing so, I'm still dissatisfied. I just don't want to do this and add to the ratings. The promos are still corny, the matches for the exception of few are still very short and uninteresting and the whole booking still revolves around one story!!! Its still the Raw = John Cena show plus some matches, Smackdown! = World Title feud plus some matches. All the other storytelling is so underdeveloped and looks as if creative isn't even trying! I'm not that impressed with Danial Byran and feel that he's overrated. He's ok in the ring but lack any personality whatsoever...another example of poor character/gimmick development! He's just some generic dude that comes out to bumble bee music to me.

3rd Bold: I no longer have the patience or the time to watch a 2 hour show and get MOMENTS of what I want. I get more of what I want when I watch TNA for 2 hours. The WWE was still great even after it stopped being the WWF. I don't believe in never and am smart enough to know that Vince Mcmahon is first and foremost a business man. As such, if he loses enough money due to unsatified fans or a better alternative then there is always hope that things will get better with the WWE. Vince is just doing what he's doing now due to the lack of competition but I believe that TNA has what it takes to become that competition to push WWE to its limits just as WCW did with the WWF.

These statements imo are totally unnerving.

First of all, I think the ONLY good thing that TNA is doing right now IS Jeff Hardy. They have actually made him interesting, which I though was something that was impossible. I mean lets face it, face Hardy is about as exciting as a bag of rocks, and his matches are outerly disgraceful since he's let himself go on binge after binge. Now, he still wrestles like shit, but at least he has put on some good promo's

Second of all, you say all the WWE cares about are the mainevents, but the WWE's midcard is at least 5 times as good as TNA's. The ENTIRE show for month's now is about immortal, who's basic concept is to put all the guys that people dont want to see + fortune and out them in the main event and take up an hour and a half of our two hour show. They even manage to fuck up the tag-division by almost never putting them on TV.

Third of all, Daniel Byan is the best technical wrestler right now on either show (yes, he's even better than Kurt at this point). If you don't think he has personnality or charisma (first of all, who the hell cares, he is putting on a show in the ring!) than I think you've been listening a little too closley to Cole and Miz. The guys has every bit the charismatic talent that any of the guys from fortune, Abyss, Doug Williams, and RVD have. Is he The Rock? No. But damn, he's had maybe like 3 or 4 promo's of any significant length and has nailed them all. To say the WWE has fucked up his charicter is straight nonsense imo.

xStraightxEdgexSaviorx
12-03-2010, 06:03 PM
Not exactly. CM Punk was face when he cashed in. But yeah, every other time.

Yeah bit it was all part of him turning heel[/QUOTE]

I'm talking about the first time when he cashed in on edge.

Rassling_Fan
12-03-2010, 06:15 PM
Third of all, Daniel Byan is the best technical wrestler right now on either show (yes, he's even better than Kurt at this point). If you don't think he has personnality or charisma (first of all, who the hell cares, he is putting on a show in the ring!) than I think you've been listening a little too closley to Cole and Miz. The guys has every bit the charismatic talent that any of the guys from fortune, Abyss, Doug Williams, and RVD have. Is he The Rock? No. But damn, he's had maybe like 3 or 4 promo's of any significant length and has nailed them all. To say the WWE has fucked up his charicter is straight nonsense imo.

There's also the fact AJ Styles doesn't have much of a personality himself on the mic, but he is still Phenomenal in the ring! So it's contradictory to dislike Bryan for such a (poor) reason.

SilverGhost
12-03-2010, 06:23 PM
1st Bold: The Hogan and Bischoff stuff isn't really that bad! They hardly get any tv time and booking is decent. The only real difference I've seen since their arrival is that the X-Division has taken a back seat...something that I'm not too fond with either. Honestly though, I think bringing in at least Hogan was a good idea on TNA's part because the initial exposure was great! It had everyone talking and speculating about the future of TNA. Moving forward will it be a good idea...I just look at as nothing lasts forever and its just another phase of TNA's overall growth. I really think that a lot of fans over exaggerate when it comes to the Hogan/Bischoff thing! The only issues I'm having with it, is like I said, the lack of exploitation of the X-Division and the way their using Jeff Hardy.

2nd Bold: Even though, I've stopped watching the live programming, I still youtube recent matches or go to wrestling sites to watch them...after doing so, I'm still dissatisfied. I just don't want to do this and add to the ratings. The promos are still corny, the matches for the exception of few are still very short and uninteresting and the whole booking still revolves around one story!!! Its still the Raw = John Cena show plus some matches, Smackdown! = World Title feud plus some matches. All the other storytelling is so underdeveloped and looks as if creative isn't even trying! I'm not that impressed with Danial Byran and feel that he's overrated. He's ok in the ring but lack any personality whatsoever...another example of poor character/gimmick development! He's just some generic dude that comes out to bumble bee music to me.

3rd Bold: I no longer have the patience or the time to watch a 2 hour show and get MOMENTS of what I want. I get more of what I want when I watch TNA for 2 hours. The WWE was still great even after it stopped being the WWF. I don't believe in never and am smart enough to know that Vince Mcmahon is first and foremost a business man. As such, if he loses enough money due to unsatified fans or a better alternative then there is always hope that things will get better with the WWE. Vince is just doing what he's doing now due to the lack of competition but I believe that TNA has what it takes to become that competition to push WWE to its limits just as WCW did with the WWF.

The bolded parts are very laughable.

WWE has ZERO competition now. If WWE faced 2006 TNA then WWE would put better programming. But since TNA is following WCW to the grave and getting cozy with WCW's corpse, why should WWE even try? If the competition is good, then the product is good.

SevenCagedTigers
12-03-2010, 06:28 PM
As for like the MITB its become predictable that they will cash it in when the champions down and when he's not prepared, which is a good thing sometimes and was but now everyone does it. Mix it up a bit. Have they announce it three even six months in advance and have a long storyline which makes the person cashing it in a star. Also they wouldn't have to win it, that's become boring in itself. You know why not the guy loss the match and afterwards it doesn't matter, because he's been elevated to the main event level or such.

I think that the Money in the Bank is the best storyline going in wrestling right now. The MITB contract has become THE stepping stone towards becoming a World Champion. It used to be that the Intercontinental Championship was the training wheels towards becoming a champion. Back in the days of Bret Hart, Shawn Michaels and The Ultimate Warrior, being Intercontinental Champion meant that management was testing you to see how well you carried yourself as a champion. If you could carry the IC belt well, it gave management the trust to put you into the main event spot.

After that, there was the Royal Rumble, as well as the King of the Ring which both became important stepping stones towards becoming a champion. Nowadays, the King of the Ring is no longer that stepping stone, and winning the Intercontinental or U.S. Championships in no way guarantees nor prepares you towards becoming a World Champion. The IC and U.S. titles have really just become props giving midcard guys something to do in a company that has a bloated roster.

I think that the Money in the Bank has become THE stepping stone towards becoming World Champion in the WWE. You talk about the Money in the Bank being predictable when the majority of Royal Rumble wins the past few years have been guys returning from injury. Take a look at the past 4 Royal Rumble winners:

2010 - Edge
2009 - Randy Orton
2008 - John Cena
2007 - The Undertaker

What then, I ask you, has the Royal Rumble done to elevate new talent when ALL of those names were already established superstars? The WWE has neglected to invest in long-term storylines when it comes to setting up the Royal Rumble winner in favor of cheap pops for superstars returning from injury. They would rather have that one great moment when the crowd sees a superstar they havent seen for months return and clear out the ring then trust new guys main eventing Wrestlemania.

The MITB is important. Its been the stepping stone for legitimate World Title pushes for guys like Edge and CM Punk. Cheap win or not, It has become more meaningful then the IC or King of the Ring titles.

xStraightxEdgexSaviorx
12-03-2010, 07:17 PM
I think that the Money in the Bank is the best storyline going in wrestling right now. The MITB contract has become THE stepping stone towards becoming a World Champion. It used to be that the Intercontinental Championship was the training wheels towards becoming a champion. Back in the days of Bret Hart, Shawn Michaels and The Ultimate Warrior, being Intercontinental Champion meant that management was testing you to see how well you carried yourself as a champion. If you could carry the IC belt well, it gave management the trust to put you into the main event spot.

After that, there was the Royal Rumble, as well as the King of the Ring which both became important stepping stones towards becoming a champion. Nowadays, the King of the Ring is no longer that stepping stone, and winning the Intercontinental or U.S. Championships in no way guarantees nor prepares you towards becoming a World Champion. The IC and U.S. titles have really just become props giving midcard guys something to do in a company that has a bloated roster.

I think that the Money in the Bank has become THE stepping stone towards becoming World Champion in the WWE. You talk about the Money in the Bank being predictable when the majority of Royal Rumble wins the past few years have been guys returning from injury. Take a look at the past 4 Royal Rumble winners:

2010 - Edge
2009 - Randy Orton
2008 - John Cena
2007 - The Undertaker

What then, I ask you, has the Royal Rumble done to elevate new talent when ALL of those names were already established superstars? The WWE has neglected to invest in long-term storylines when it comes to setting up the Royal Rumble winner in favor of cheap pops for superstars returning from injury. They would rather have that one great moment when the crowd sees a superstar they havent seen for months return and clear out the ring then trust new guys main eventing Wrestlemania.

The MITB is important. Its been the stepping stone for legitimate World Title pushes for guys like Edge and CM Punk. Cheap win or not, It has become more meaningful then the IC or King of the Ring titles.

I agree with everything you said, except the bolded part. Wrestlemania is by far the most important event in all of wrestling, and being that, you want a sure thing. You need that huge draw to mainevent Wrestlemania, and even though I'm sure we'd all be pleased with seeing a John Morrison, Daniel Bryan, or even Alberto Del Rio winning the rumble, it simply aint good for buisness. This is a time tested formula and I don't think you should be inclined to expect anything less. Point being, look at the Rumble winners of the last 20 years. Maybe one or two names WEREN'T huge stars already, but other than that it has been pure super novas winning every time.

SilverGhost
12-03-2010, 07:18 PM
I think that the Money in the Bank is the best storyline going in wrestling right now. The MITB contract has become THE stepping stone towards becoming a World Champion. It used to be that the Intercontinental Championship was the training wheels towards becoming a champion. Back in the days of Bret Hart, Shawn Michaels and The Ultimate Warrior, being Intercontinental Champion meant that management was testing you to see how well you carried yourself as a champion. If you could carry the IC belt well, it gave management the trust to put you into the main event spot.

After that, there was the Royal Rumble, as well as the King of the Ring which both became important stepping stones towards becoming a champion. Nowadays, the King of the Ring is no longer that stepping stone, and winning the Intercontinental or U.S. Championships in no way guarantees nor prepares you towards becoming a World Champion. The IC and U.S. titles have really just become props giving midcard guys something to do in a company that has a bloated roster.

I think that the Money in the Bank has become THE stepping stone towards becoming World Champion in the WWE. You talk about the Money in the Bank being predictable when the majority of Royal Rumble wins the past few years have been guys returning from injury. Take a look at the past 4 Royal Rumble winners:

2010 - Edge
2009 - Randy Orton
2008 - John Cena
2007 - The Undertaker

What then, I ask you, has the Royal Rumble done to elevate new talent when ALL of those names were already established superstars? The WWE has neglected to invest in long-term storylines when it comes to setting up the Royal Rumble winner in favor of cheap pops for superstars returning from injury. They would rather have that one great moment when the crowd sees a superstar they havent seen for months return and clear out the ring then trust new guys main eventing Wrestlemania.

The MITB is important. Its been the stepping stone for legitimate World Title pushes for guys like Edge and CM Punk. Cheap win or not, It has become more meaningful then the IC or King of the Ring titles.

MITB is good don't get me wrong here. Just I hate it when heels cash it in. I do agree that it is important to boost careers but overall....the cash in part is obvious.

The Brown One
12-03-2010, 08:26 PM
I think that the Money in the Bank is the best storyline going in wrestling right now. The MITB contract has become THE stepping stone towards becoming a World Champion. It used to be that the Intercontinental Championship was the training wheels towards becoming a champion. Back in the days of Bret Hart, Shawn Michaels and The Ultimate Warrior, being Intercontinental Champion meant that management was testing you to see how well you carried yourself as a champion. If you could carry the IC belt well, it gave management the trust to put you into the main event spot.

After that, there was the Royal Rumble, as well as the King of the Ring which both became important stepping stones towards becoming a champion. Nowadays, the King of the Ring is no longer that stepping stone, and winning the Intercontinental or U.S. Championships in no way guarantees nor prepares you towards becoming a World Champion. The IC and U.S. titles have really just become props giving midcard guys something to do in a company that has a bloated roster.

I think that the Money in the Bank has become THE stepping stone towards becoming World Champion in the WWE. You talk about the Money in the Bank being predictable when the majority of Royal Rumble wins the past few years have been guys returning from injury. Take a look at the past 4 Royal Rumble winners:

2010 - Edge
2009 - Randy Orton
2008 - John Cena
2007 - The Undertaker

What then, I ask you, has the Royal Rumble done to elevate new talent when ALL of those names were already established superstars? The WWE has neglected to invest in long-term storylines when it comes to setting up the Royal Rumble winner in favor of cheap pops for superstars returning from injury. They would rather have that one great moment when the crowd sees a superstar they havent seen for months return and clear out the ring then trust new guys main eventing Wrestlemania.

The MITB is important. Its been the stepping stone for legitimate World Title pushes for guys like Edge and CM Punk. Cheap win or not, It has become more meaningful then the IC or King of the Ring titles.

I agree with everything you said. The intercontinental title USED to be the stepping stone to a major title, and even tho its not anymore, commentary brings it up every 2 weeks instead of calling the match better.

The rumble pattern seems to be working for the past few years in returning a superstar and getting them huge pops. But its overdone and shouldn't be repeated next year. Although knowing WWE theyv'e already picked Trips or maybe even Christian to make a "surprise" return at RR and win it.

SilverGhost
12-03-2010, 08:32 PM
I agree with everything you said. The intercontinental title USED to be the stepping stone to a major title, and even tho its not anymore, commentary brings it up every 2 weeks instead of calling the match better.

The rumble pattern seems to be working for the past few years in returning a superstar and getting them huge pops. But its overdone and shouldn't be repeated next year. Although knowing WWE theyv'e already picked Trips or maybe even Christian to make a "surprise" return at RR and win it.

Christian won't return by Royal Rumble time I believe. There was a fake Twitter account that used his name and said that "I will return at the Rumble." But Christian said that isn't true.

Whatever....

Firebrand
12-03-2010, 11:48 PM
Hi Marky, how you doing?

I said more and more...not all..*sigh*

My point was and i suppose i should have elaborated, I really dont see any "noticable" increase in clean wins. Something happens nearly every week.

The Brown One
12-04-2010, 12:48 AM
Christian won't return by Royal Rumble time I believe. There was a fake Twitter account that used his name and said that "I will return at the Rumble." But Christian said that isn't true.

Whatever....

Yeah i know the story. But Christian wont be out so long will he? I'd say he'l be back sometime around then if not a bit earlier

Rich Cranium
12-04-2010, 12:53 AM
He sounds optimistic so yes, he could be a surprise participant at the Rumble!

Xpacfan
12-06-2010, 09:41 AM
The bolded parts are very laughable.

WWE has ZERO competition now. If WWE faced 2006 TNA then WWE would put better programming. But since TNA is following WCW to the grave and getting cozy with WCW's corpse, why should WWE even try? If the competition is good, then the product is good.

What you highlighted only proved my point of how you exaggerate the Hogan/Bischoff issue and how you took my 2 hour reference out of context. I clearly said that I refuse to watch something for 2 hours that will only give me moments of what I want to watch. Its like you're only reading what you want to read...

SilverGhost
12-06-2010, 11:12 AM
What you highlighted only proved my point of how you exaggerate the Hogan/Bischoff issue and how you took my 2 hour reference out of context. I clearly said that I refuse to watch something for 2 hours that will only give me moments of what I want to watch. Its like you're only reading what you want to read...

There was no point whatsoever. That only showed me that you can be blinded.

How is it that you can compare the creative team from both companies and still get behind TNA and know that their main thing, which is Immortal, is good? I am just showing the flaws of TNA and they are flawed as hell. Last night proved it at my favor. TNA can't keep their main events exciting.
Their midcard in PPVs are more exiciting than the Immortal storyline. I am with neither side. I am not a WWE fan or a TNA fan. I am a wrestling fan. Playing favorites will get me blinded.

I suggest this out of fairness: If you wanna judge now, at least watch Raw or Smackdown. You say that WWE insults your intelligence. TNA is worse on that part.

Also WWE can put on a wrestling show. The young guys can wrestle as well.

el gabo
12-06-2010, 08:12 PM
There was no point whatsoever. That only showed me that you can be blinded.

How is it that you can compare the creative team from both companies and still get behind TNA and know that their main thing, which is Immortal, is good? I am just showing the flaws of TNA and they are flawed as hell. Last night proved it at my favor. TNA can't keep their main events exciting.
Their midcard in PPVs are more exiciting than the Immortal storyline. I am with neither side. I am not a WWE fan or a TNA fan. I am a wrestling fan. Playing favorites will get me blinded.

I suggest this out of fairness: If you wanna judge now, at least watch Raw or Smackdown. You say that WWE insults your intelligence. TNA is worse on that part.

Also WWE can put on a wrestling show. The young guys can wrestle as well.

With you on this one. As much as WWE can dissapoint me at times, TNA has let me down far worse.

It might be that I've watched wrestling since 1993 at saw the whole NWO/WCW era but, I really see the whole thing replaying and people talk about WWE and their backstage politics but, Hogan's politics are way worse. Burying AJ and Joe?? Don't get it. You might focus on others for a short time but, completly forgetting your two FRANCHISE players (would have been three but Daniels is gone) is unacceptable and for a DIEHARD HARDCORE TNA fan it should be too.

BTW best thread posted.

SilverGhost
12-07-2010, 12:58 AM
With you on this one. As much as WWE can dissapoint me at times, TNA has let me down far worse.

It might be that I've watched wrestling since 1993 at saw the whole NWO/WCW era but, I really see the whole thing replaying and people talk about WWE and their backstage politics but, Hogan's politics are way worse. Burying AJ and Joe?? Don't get it. You might focus on others for a short time but, completly forgetting your two FRANCHISE players (would have been three but Daniels is gone) is unacceptable and for a DIEHARD HARDCORE TNA fan it should be too.

BTW best thread posted.

Exactly. AJ is a really bad heel. Joe is misused. Daniels is in ROH.

AND THESE THREE FELLOWS ARE TNA LEGENDS!