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View Full Version : Jack Swagger ~ Please drop the ankle lock and get an original submission



Wrestling_Deluxe_08
11-24-2010, 11:36 PM
The title says it all. Now don't get me wrong, I like Jack Swagger. I think the guy is a great athlete and can put on a wrestling clinic whenever he wants to. However, I have a hard time taking him seriously as a top competitor. Now you can argue that his mic skills are part of the problem, but you know what that doesn't bother me as much. Because regardless of how he talks, he can draw heat. My problem with him is his finisher. No, not the gutwrench powerbomb. The ankle lock. Why in the world would WWE have him use a move that's already being used by one of the top wrestler's in their sport, Kurt Angle?

Okay, now before you guys come on here and start telling me that I am 'bitching and moaning' and complaining for no reason, read what I have to say. Anytime Swagger uses that ankle lock, I immediately think "he is using Kurt Angle's move" and I have a perfectly good reason to think that way. Nobody could use the ankle lock like Kurt Angle could and he used it in such a fashion that it became associated with him and I'm sure the kids are familiar with the sport enough to know who Kurt Angle is. So knowing this, it makes me look at Swagger as a generic rip-off of Angle. I mean, if his amateur wrestling background does not remind me of Angle enough, then his finisher surely does. Anytime someone is a generic rip-off of someone and NOT a distinctive, original character, I'm not going to take them seriously and I'm presuming you guys wouldn't either. I'm not saying Swagger is a COMPLETE rip-off of Angle, because he is not, but I will say he reminds me way too much of him for me to take him seriously. I think it is very important that wrestlers get their own unique finishers and submissions if they want to distinguish themselves in this world of wrestling. Thus, this is why I am hoping WWE has him change his submission finisher soon to something that will distinguish him from others. There are tons of other submissions that nobody is using. Why in the world did HIS have to be the ankle lock??

I can already tell someone is going to come on here and say, "Don't associate finishers with people" but how the world are we not going to do that? When you see a stunner, who do you think of? Stone Cold Steve Austin. When you see a superkick, who do you think of? HBK. When you see the pedigree done in any fashion, who do you think of? Triple H. Go To Sleep. CM Punk or KENTA. Codebreaker. Y2J. A Uranage Slam (Rock Bottom). The Rock. Angle Lock. Kurt Fucking Angle! Now knowing that, if someone new guy was to come out dressed like the Rock, talking like the rock, and used his Rock Bottom, would you take him seriously? Let me give you another scenerio. Remember when Skip Sheffiled came in dressed with a vest and used a modified stunner and reminded you of Stone Cold Steve Austin, do you go 'wow he is going to be world champion one day' because I didn't. Which proves my point. What I am saying is, I think it would help Jack Swagger out lots if he were to just get a different submission hold and make himself more distinctive and not remind someone like me of Kurt Angle. I'm sure I'd take him more seriously. He needs a submission move that NOBODY is doing. As I've said, there are tons of submissions in the world of wrestling. So that shouldn't be a problem.

EDIT: Just to clarify. I am not saying he CANNOT use the angle kick because Angle is using it. He can use whatever he wants, but I think if he wants to be smart and make himself distinguishable, he would use a different submission move. At least one no one is using right now.

Robstar
11-25-2010, 12:08 AM
I believe Ken Shamrock popularised it before Kurt Angle and I'm sure there were others before that. Having moves assigned purely to an idividual wrestler is poppycock. So they have to keep inventing new moves because you believe they should be kept off limits. There was a world that existed before you came through the wardrobe you know

IrkenInvader
11-25-2010, 12:11 AM
I agree with Rob, CM Punk would do a split legged corkscrew moonsault (Starship Pain) in the Indys. So does that mean Morrison can't do it?

Bodom
11-25-2010, 12:12 AM
Jake Roberts did the DDT.

So pretty much every wrestler on the planet is fucked

Enlgish_TNA4LYF_FAN
11-25-2010, 12:14 AM
yh but COME ON guys
the wwe have basically built swagger on angle, similar wrestling attire, nerdy wrestling grad, a TRUE american (american) and now the ankle lock
WTF

Wrestling_Deluxe_08
11-25-2010, 12:15 AM
Thats not what I mean at all. I never said 'Swagger cannot use the ankle lock because Kurt Angle is using it' what I said was I find it hard to take him seriously and not associate him with Kurt Angle when he uses the ankle lock. Therefore, I think it would help him better if he used a different submission finisher. That is all I am saying.

Please be sure you read what I said carefully, before assuming that I am bashing the guy. I am not bashing him and I am not saying moves should be off limit because someone else is using them or used them. I am saying it is a bad idea to use a submission as a finisher that is STILL be popularised by someone else because you begin to associate the guy with the one who has made it popular.

Question? How the hell did you guys get 'no one can use a finisher that is being used by someone else' out of what I said? Seriously?

Bodom
11-25-2010, 12:17 AM
So what submission would you like for him to use?

Rich Cranium
11-25-2010, 12:18 AM
I don't know but I will say I like how the Undertaker utilizes MMA submission moves like the triangle choke and gogoplata, so there certainly are tons of moves out there that could be used, look at Del Rio's finisher.

Wrestling_Deluxe_08
11-25-2010, 12:20 AM
Not the ankle lock. How's about he use a modified version of the Texas Cloverleaf or something? Nobody I know is using that right now.

IrkenInvader
11-25-2010, 12:20 AM
Iron Claw!!!!

Bodom
11-25-2010, 12:21 AM
Not the ankle lock. How's about he use a modified version of the Texas Cloverleaf or something? Nobody I know is using that right now.

Cloverleaf is cool.

Dean Malenko could use the nod.

Robstar
11-25-2010, 12:23 AM
But that is what you are saying! So no figure fours because Old Yeller Flair refuses to go away? No legdrops because Hogan is still here?

There is little doubt WWE created Swagger to mock Kurt Angle. Hey you're allowed to re-cast roles in other tv shows! Do you really thin Kurt Angle is bothered by it? I highly doubt it.

Wrestling_Deluxe_08
11-25-2010, 12:24 AM
I mean, yeah, the cloverleaf was popularized by Dean Malenko, but it is a rare submission being used anymore and I think it could make him much more distinct than the anke lock.

Wrestling_Deluxe_08
11-25-2010, 12:26 AM
But that is what you are saying! So no figure fours because Old Yeller Flair refuses to go away? No legdrops because Hogan is still here?

There is little doubt WWE created Swagger to mock Kurt Angle. Hey you're allowed to re-cast roles in other tv shows! Do you really thin Kurt Angle is bothered by it? I highly doubt it.
No that is not! That is how you are interpreting it. I did not say he cannot use a finisher someone else is using right now. He can use whatever the hell he wants. I just think if he wants to be smart he would use a different submission that no one else is using so it could help make him more distinctive and stand out more. Damn, how many times do I have to say it for you guys to get my point!

Robstar
11-25-2010, 12:30 AM
No that is not! That is how you are interpreting it. I did not say he cannot use a finisher someone else is using right now. He can use whatever the hell he wants. I just think if he wants to be smart he would use a different submission that no one else is using so it could help make him more distinctive and stand out more. Damn, how many times do I have to say it for you guys to get my point!

Which WD40, ;), is why WWE probably ordered him to use it! I bet the thought of Angle, a guy he basically created and bought up in this side of wrestling, defecting to be the top guy in the competition still burns Vince. Of course, the more time passes, the less of a threat TNA is turning out to be

Bodom
11-25-2010, 12:31 AM
What if it was Swaggers idea to use the Ankle Lock?

Wrestling_Deluxe_08
11-25-2010, 12:33 AM
Whatever reason WWE is making him use this finisher, or whether he wanted to use it or not, does not change the fact that I can't take him seriously when he uses it. Therefore, he needs to change it, IMO.

SilverGhost
11-25-2010, 12:35 AM
What if it was Swaggers idea to use the Ankle Lock?

Then Kurt will hunt his ass down and snaps his ankle.

jethro
11-25-2010, 12:38 AM
If I'm not mistaken there are only 3 wrestlers in wwe history use anklelock as a finisher

Maybe WWE doesnt want us to think if its anklelock its Kurt angle,WWE want distant themself from Angle and associate Swagger with that submission move.

Bodom
11-25-2010, 12:38 AM
If I'm not mistaken there are only 3 wrestlers in wwe history use anklelock as a finisher

Maybe WWE doesnt want us to think if its anklelock its Kurt angle,WWE want distant themself from Angle and associate Swagger with that submission move.

Similar to how they had HBK use the crossface?

IrkenInvader
11-25-2010, 12:38 AM
If I'm not mistaken there are only 3 wrestlers in wwe history use anklelock as a finisher

Maybe WWE doesnt want us to think if its anklelock its Kurt angle,WWE want distant themself from Angle and associate Swagger with that submission move.

Who are these 3 peeps?

Bodom
11-25-2010, 12:39 AM
Who are these 3 peeps?

Primo, Yoshi Tatsu, and Juan Cena

Wrestling_Deluxe_08
11-25-2010, 12:43 AM
Last I recall, HBK, Daniel Bryan, Kurt Angle, The Rock, and Ken Shamrock have all used the ankle lock before. Thats fine. I'm not saying the move is off limits. My thing is, I think it is very important that wrestlers get their own unique finishers and submissions if they want to distinguish themselves in this world of wrestling. If Swagger can find himself a submission that nobody is doing, I think it would help him lots.

IPEEINTHESHOWER
11-25-2010, 12:44 AM
Let Swagger use the F'N ankle lock. Does it really matter? Come on man, when you are comparing him to Kurt Angle its a complement not a put down. I suspect since he is a 2 time all American American he wants to use the ankle lock in honor of Kurt. It could be Vince's inside joke but I doubt it. I don't care what finisher he uses, I just want the Swagger Soaring Eagle back!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I miss the fella already, this drinks for you good buddy, keep soaring.

IrkenInvader
11-25-2010, 12:45 AM
Last I recall, HBK, Daniel Bryan, Kurt Angle, The Rock, and Ken Shamrock have all used the ankle lock before. Thats fine. I'm not saying the move is off limits. My thing is, I think it is very important that wrestlers get their own unique finishers and submissions if they want to distinguish themselves in this world of wrestling. If Swagger can find himself a submission that nobody is doing, I think it would help him lots.

You forgot Batista.

SilverGhost
11-25-2010, 12:48 AM
Let Swagger keep the submission hold.

WWE needs a Kurt Angle and Swagger fits well for them. Just let them be and enjoy some ankles being snapped at the WWE.

Wrestling_Deluxe_08
11-25-2010, 12:49 AM
Let Swagger use the F'N ankle lock. Does it really matter? Come on man, when you are comparing him to Kurt Angle its a complement not a put down. I suspect since he is a 2 time all American American he wants to use the ankle lock in honor of Kurt. It could be Vince's inside joke but I doubt it. I don't care what finisher he uses, I just want the Swagger Soaring Eagle back!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I miss the fella already, this drinks for you good buddy, keep soaring.
Why is nobody getting my point???? I am not saying comparing him to Angle is not a complement. IMO, I do not think the ankle lock is a good finisher to use when you are trying to make yourself distinctive in the world of wrestling. That is what I am saying. Why is that so hard to understand?

jethro
11-25-2010, 12:50 AM
Similar to how they had HBK use the crossface?
Yeah and imo it was controversial because once you saw that crossface you'll instantly think of Benoit,and HBK use that move 4-5 month after Benoit's death.


Who are these 3 peeps?
Previous poster did mention those wrestlers - Shamrock,Angle and now Swagger.

Wrestling_Deluxe_08
11-25-2010, 12:50 AM
Let Swagger keep the submission hold.

WWE needs a Kurt Angle and Swagger fits well for them. Just let them be and enjoy some ankles being snapped at the WWE.
Okay, so apparently no body cares if Swagger is a generic rip-off of Kurt Angle. Okay, fine. Enjoy it.

IPEEINTHESHOWER
11-25-2010, 12:51 AM
Why is nobody getting my point???? I am not saying comparing him to Angle is not a complement. IMO, I do not think the ankle lock is a good finisher to use when you are trying to make yourself distinctive in the world of wrestling. That is what I am saying. Why is that so hard to understand?

I'm seeing double fella, I'm just happyu I can still type.

Bodom
11-25-2010, 12:52 AM
Okay, so apparently no body cares if Swagger is a generic rip-off of Kurt Angle. Okay, fine. Enjoy it.

Thank you for allowing us to enjoy something.

May we cheer too?

Wrestling_Deluxe_08
11-25-2010, 12:53 AM
Thank you for allowing us to enjoy something.

May we cheer too?
Yes, your master allows you to cheer. :P

SilverGhost
11-25-2010, 12:57 AM
Okay, so apparently no body cares if Swagger is a generic rip-off of Kurt Angle. Okay, fine. Enjoy it.

Basically.

Its not like its damaging to both Angle or Swagger.

I actually like that there is a mat based wrestler in the WWE and does a submission special. Del Rio uses an armbar. So does that mean that some hopeful in TNA not use an armbar as a special?

Bodom
11-25-2010, 12:58 AM
Basically.

Its not like its damaging to both Angle or Swagger.

I actually like that there is a mat based wrestler in the WWE and does a submission special. Del Rio uses an armbar. So does that mean that some hopeful in TNA not use an armbar as a special?

Certainly not Jericho.

ARMBAR!!

SilverGhost
11-25-2010, 01:00 AM
Certainly not Jericho.

ARMBAR!!

LOL xD

A good armbar or ankle lock is refreshing to see!

Wrestling_Deluxe_08
11-25-2010, 01:03 AM
Basically.

Its not like its damaging to both Angle or Swagger.

I actually like that there is a mat based wrestler in the WWE and does a submission special. Del Rio uses an armbar. So does that mean that some hopeful in TNA not use an armbar as a special?
Jesus christ. I've said this 100 times already. I did not say he could not be a mat based wrestler and could not use a finisher that someone else is using right now. I just think that it would make him MORE DISTINGUISHABLE if he used a DIFFERENT finisher other than the ankle lock.

I'm praying this is sinking in.

Bodom
11-25-2010, 01:07 AM
Maybe, but to people who strictly watch WWE, (casual non internet fans) he's the only guy that uses it.

SilverGhost
11-25-2010, 01:12 AM
Jesus christ. I've said this 100 times already. I did not say he could not be a mat based wrestler and could not use a finisher that someone else is using right now. I just think that it would make him MORE DISTINGUISHABLE if he used a DIFFERENT finisher other than the ankle lock.

I'm praying this is sinking in.

WWE would change it but they would need a reason. A good one. Angle using the ankle lock isn't enough reason.

Also it has to fit his character. So Swagger having that special is good for him.

Saiga
11-25-2010, 01:45 AM
did u purposely leave out "who do think of when the spear is used?"

well goldberg was the guy that made the move popular, so is it dispicable that guys like edge & rhino made it their signature move or that guys like big show, bobby lashley n batista started using it as a normal move?

the wrestling shade
11-25-2010, 01:50 AM
i think tommey dreamer used to do this finisher or was that finley any way i think having a finisher to finish you opponint is silly to begin with, i mean its like ( ow wait ! i want to hit you with my finisher so we can end this match!!!o_O ) what the fuck is that?! so redicilus, i personly like the wrestler who has a huge set of moves and the fact that each time he use's a deffrent move to end the match because if you do that you would add a surprise eliment into the match. i mean if you are goin to finish your opponint with fucking FU each time you face him, then the fans would know that the match would be over after the move and so you would lose that eliment of surprise but if you keep showing the fans something new each time you are in the ring well then the fans would say yea this is a hell of a wrestler!!!!

Iron Ape
11-25-2010, 01:54 AM
3 different guys on one brand using the same exact choke-slam is far more bothersome, yet no one ever complains about that.

Robstar
11-25-2010, 02:07 AM
Look WD40, we understand what you are saying. Just most of us disagree with you. It's ok to debate this point but it doesn't have to end with us agreeing. Fine, you think Swagger should drop it but you are in the minority when it comes to people it bothers. I don't think of Angle when I see him do it, I think wow, there's an ankle lock, cool. That's it. That's all.

Robstar
11-25-2010, 02:08 AM
It's the same when I see Vickie, I don't think of Eddie. That would spoil the fantasy ;)

Iron Ape
11-25-2010, 02:24 AM
I wonder if Ken Shamrock ever went on the internet and told people that Kurt Angle needs to drop the ankle lock and get an original submission.

Kashdinero
11-25-2010, 02:40 AM
3 different guys on one brand using the same exact choke-slam is far more bothersome, yet no one ever complains about that.

It bothers me big time! Show used to have the most unique and devastating choke slam EVER! Now it's just sad. I'm glad he added the k.o punch. It's less of an embarrassment.

t34mplayer
11-25-2010, 04:32 AM
If I'm not mistaken there are only 3 wrestlers in wwe history use anklelock as a finisher

Im thinking ken shamrock? did he use it?

SgtGohan
11-25-2010, 05:52 AM
i like the anklelock, so he should keep it

joe157
11-25-2010, 06:26 AM
I think some people are missing the original posters point.

He is NOT saying that no two wrestlers cant use the same finishing move.

I think he IS saying that, based on Swaggars character (all american etc etc) is too similar to what Angle had back in the day (American Olympic gold medal - reprisenting the country etc). And with the similaritys in character, having the ancle lock as a finisher makes Swaggar lose identity in his own right.

He isn't saying that he cant be slightly based on Angle with the American theme, just saying that following Angles finisher is making him think of Angle more than Swaggar himself and with a differnt finisher, Swaggar would be more unique.

Hopefully I've helped with the point OP ;)

(the guys pointing out various wrestlers using the same finishing moves - the thing is Goldberg and Edge are not really similar so the use finisher may not make you automatically think of the other wrestler. Same can be said for some of the other examples)

(been looking on the forum for a while, just joined. 1st post!)

jethro
11-25-2010, 07:09 AM
Im thinking ken shamrock? did he use it?

Yep he did.

SaberToothTigerz
11-25-2010, 07:11 AM
bfore swagger it was michaels and no one complained.

billythekidd_527
11-25-2010, 09:47 AM
I like Swagger using the ankle lock BECAUSE it is reminiscent of angle, just like seeing Bryan with his beard slapping on a crossface reminds of Benoit. It gives the WWE a nice throwback to the good old WWF attitude era days.
As for reusing finishers, almost everything is a variation of something else these days. Look at the Miz... skull crushing finally is basically Jeff Jarrett 's stroke but I don't hear anything said about that.
At least Swagger uses more than 5 moves in any given match be it 2 minutes or 20.

Rich Cranium
11-25-2010, 10:04 AM
Rich's Final Thought:

We should NOT be fixated upon a certain move or feel that a move is "owned" by a particular wrestler. Example: I cant even tell you how many people I've seen use the figure four. If your going to associate a move with a wrestler, perhaps name the move after him if he did indeed invent or popularize it like the Labell lock - Gene Labell or the Thesz Press - Lou Thesz. Point - There is a huge open pit of moves available for any wrestler to use and its up to him or her to use it and to make it special to fit their style.

CobraNightviper
11-25-2010, 11:37 AM
it seems to me that originality in wrestling moves(in wwe and tna anyway)is a thing of the past I haven't seen any new moves in quite a while so yeah who ever uses the move should just make it there own and try to add there own spin on it.

Taxi Driver
11-25-2010, 12:06 PM
It doesn't matter IMO if he uses the Ankle Lock or not, I see him being a big WWE star in the future.

cato79
11-25-2010, 05:48 PM
I think some people are missing the original posters point.

He is NOT saying that no two wrestlers cant use the same finishing move.

I think he IS saying that, based on Swaggars character (all american etc etc) is too similar to what Angle had back in the day (American Olympic gold medal - reprisenting the country etc). And with the similaritys in character, having the ancle lock as a finisher makes Swaggar lose identity in his own right.

He isn't saying that he cant be slightly based on Angle with the American theme, just saying that following Angles finisher is making him think of Angle more than Swaggar himself and with a differnt finisher, Swaggar would be more unique.

Hopefully I've helped with the point OP ;)

(the guys pointing out various wrestlers using the same finishing moves - the thing is Goldberg and Edge are not really similar so the use finisher may not make you automatically think of the other wrestler. Same can be said for some of the other examples)

(been looking on the forum for a while, just joined. 1st post!)

That was my thought as well.. is not the finisher/move... is just that they are SO THE SAME that even using the same finisher makes it even worst. In other cases, move was the same, however, gimmick is different, gear is different, wrestling style is different, meybe even cronologically not on the same spot... but between Angle and Swagger all of those are so similar that its more evident...

I like Swagger, and I don't mind his finisher... Its just been almost painful to see my friend struggling so bad to make his point.

Since no one as said it... Welcome Joe157

Robstar
11-25-2010, 06:39 PM
That was my thought as well.. is not the finisher/move... is just that they are SO THE SAME that even using the same finisher makes it even worst. In other cases, move was the same, however, gimmick is different, gear is different, wrestling style is different, meybe even cronologically not on the same spot... but between Angle and Swagger all of those are so similar that its more evident...

I like Swagger, and I don't mind his finisher... Its just been almost painful to see my friend struggling so bad to make his point.

Since no one as said it... Welcome Joe157

Once again, it's a case of fans being narrow minded. "Duuuuh, me see same tights, me hear 'america america' me see ankle lock - dduuuuhhh, must be Kurt Angle!" Fuck. Ing. Hell. The WHOLE POINT of Swaggers character is a rib at Angle! It's Vince trying to say "we don't need you". He's also saying "look, anyone can do this!". It might not be right, but Vince is that petty.

Your friend made his point ages ago. Fact is he won't let it go until people agree with him. And I for one don't as the whole concept is an insult to my intelligence. U HIGH???