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View Full Version : Perception over reality.



URATOOL
07-28-2012, 05:25 AM
After having Punk and DB on RAW and Smackdown pretty consistently over the last few months something is starting to become apparent. Either guys like them aren't the 'technical specialist' they are lauded to be or Cena and his kind aren't the '5 move of doom' lazy feckers we are all told they are.

Having watched dozens of matches involving Punk or DB over the last few months I can honestly say that the majority of ring time is spent doing the same set of moves each match. They really don't demonstrate a vast range of moves, apart from the occasional different move. A bit like Cena really. The Fruity Pebble has his regular move set and then every now and then chucks an extra move or two in there.

Whilst I do think the Punk and DB are slightly ahead of Cena in their regular arsenal of moves I certainly don't think they are as far ahead as people go on about.

The exception to this seems to be regular PPVs. But week in week out I think you'd be surprised if you actually counted the range and repeating of moves by Punk and DB. Which is partly why I was starting to find their feud repetitive and heading towards boring.

lewism173
07-28-2012, 05:40 AM
watch there over the limit match, watch them in ROH there getting the wwe treatment and thats getting held back wrestling ability wise

URATOOL
07-28-2012, 05:42 AM
watch there over the limit match, watch them in ROH there getting the wwe treatment and thats getting held back wrestling ability wise

So you completely agree with me then. Thanks.

tchocky360
07-28-2012, 05:50 AM
Raw isn't about matches, it's about furthering storylines. They are all just going through the motions on the shows and stepping it up somewhat for the PPV.
It's a safe way that everyone knows what they're doing, injuries are minimized and we get to see slightly higher quality matches after we've paid some money for it.
I don't think there's great freedom to what guys are allowed do in their 5/10 minute matches.

It's easier to cover the lesser talented wrestlers if they only have to expect or know a smaller range of moves. Everyone having 5/6 moves means they're easier to work with, the crowd know what moves to be excited by and it keeps botching down.

Cena isn't as bad as people say, but he has his move set down for this purpose pretty good, so he has no need to change it up too much.

Tommy Thunder
07-28-2012, 05:51 AM
Well you say that they bust out some new sequences of moves at ppv's that's simply a case of saving that kind of thing for ppv matches.
Plus, WWE have limited both guys movesets sine their pre-WWE days.
For me though, Punk and Bryan have a larger set of moves that they do on each other in their matches, then Cena has for his matches. Plus, the same sets of moves that we see in the Punk/Bryan matches look better to me than the sets of moves Cena uses in his matches.s

So with that said, I still think that Punk and Bryan are that far ahead of the rest.

URATOOL
07-28-2012, 06:02 AM
It's probably not helped that we have been forced to see them against each other for what feels like an eternity. I really don't care about a wrestlers previous arsenal. Cena (for example) use to have a much larger range than he does now. But as said the guys who are expected to perform every week, often against a very small number of different opponents, are going to keep going back to their regular small move set.

The only guy that impresses me with his currently used range is Tyson Kidd. Yes really!

Stihltygre
07-28-2012, 07:29 AM
I completely agree with you here is the reasoning I find to be true...ok business based reality check, John Cena, Randy Orton CM punk Daniel Bryan etc.. are not for the purposes of this discussion people, they are Products, commodities really, much the same way you would not plant an orange orchard in Maryland because while it MAY have the growing season required there is too high a chance that a frost will wipe out your crop, you do not want your commodities in the wrestling arena to be at risk. So our way to combat this is to Limit their moves to the ones they can do, tell the story, and even if something abhorrent goes wrong, they can adapt. Botches happen, when they happen on a move that is not so well performed it becomes mechanical injury is MUCH more likely to result. So we have X wrestler limited to 5 moves they do flawlessly every single time. smaller wrestlers have more leeway because they have less mass, it's easier to redirect their bodies mid move to compensate. Cena is a very large man, if something goes wrong it's going to require a lot of force to redirect that. Should a person who is receiving the move be out of position they will be hit with a huge amount of force traveling at high speed. It's about making the matches consistent and safe, keeping the talent healthy enough to perform as much as they do. PPV events are where we start to see what they can really do , but that is still limited by the character that the WWE wants them to portray. Cena may actually be a brilliant technical wrestler, but they are selling him as a powerhouse, SO he's not going to be given the ok to do a lot of chain wrestling and such, nor is he going to get the ok for High flying moves even if he CAN do them. from what i have seen of his FCW work he has a LOT of agility ( well he did before the extra 30 lbs of muscle) he may still be able to but guys Like Mysterio become far less impressive if Cena goes out there and hits a bunch of moves we'd normally see from a cruiser weight. we see more technical wrestling from people like Punk Bryan and Ziggler because they are sold as technicians, while Cena, Big Show and Shaemus are sold as all power all the time. ...

akbar
07-28-2012, 08:58 AM
I agree, People say DB is one of the best wrestler in WWE and I watch his matches, I've noticed all he usually does is kicks while screaming 'yes!'. He barely does any grapple moves. It's all locks and kicks, but I think Punk is more versatile.

Pumpkinhead
07-28-2012, 09:11 AM
They limit the wrestler's moves to aoivd the risk of an injury, from I have seen before, Punk, Bryan and even Cena can pull a lto fo moves more than they let them

Cabers
07-28-2012, 10:32 AM
The only guy that impresses me with his currently used range is Tyson Kidd. Yes really!


I agree with you on Kidd he is the best in the WWE now imo.

Viperfish
07-28-2012, 11:12 AM
The only guy that impresses me with his currently used range is Tyson Kidd. Yes really!

I don't think that's a fair name to call out at this point in the game. He's been on major TV and PPVs for a cup of coffee so far. He hasn't had a chance to be a regular showing yet. Put him on TV every week and we'd be able to see what his range is on a weekly basis. To me he screams of a guy that just wants to be noticed with the in-ring time that he's getting. He's got the ability to really do that, and that's what he's doing(reminds me of Dolph Ziggler being a sell-machine). Whether he can pull new stuff out on a weekly basis or not against a variety of opponents remains to be seen.

Dennis
07-28-2012, 11:51 AM
I agree, People say DB is one of the best wrestler in WWE and I watch his matches, I've noticed all he usually does is kicks while screaming 'yes!'. He barely does any grapple moves. It's all locks and kicks, but I think Punk is more versatile.
daniel bryan can lock in the yes lock out of no where though. did you see how smoothly he locked it in on smackdown? as far as the kicking and yes chants go... that's just to get the crowd into the match what isn't a bad thing. I agree punk is a very versatile wrestler.

Angryhero
07-28-2012, 09:23 PM
It's true that WWE limits ALL their wrestlers moves, plus the top guys even do less.... Look at Edge. When he became a top star, his move set dwindled too. I think to limit the chance of injury... Either way, DBry and Punk are way ahead of Cena, but then again, Cena did some great moves even in his first match with Angle.

Dubs
07-28-2012, 09:35 PM
It's true that WWE limits ALL their wrestlers moves, plus the top guys even do less.... Look at Edge. When he became a top star, his move set dwindled too. I think to limit the chance of injury... Either way, DBry and Punk are way ahead of Cena, but then again, Cena did some great moves even in his first match with Angle.
Yup. The neck injury Edge suffered back in 2003 limited his in-ring style completely. He was usually a high-flyer but went to being a brawler so he wouldn't have a wear and tear on his body. Once he suffered a torn Achilles tendon, it really affected his workrate. Same with John Cena. He used to wrestle at a faster pace (see his iron man match with Shawn Michaels on Raw) but suffering a torn pectoral muscle and a herniated disc in his neck really slowed him down a bit. Hes still a great worker though so it hasn't had too much of a dramatic affect on his workrate.

johnnydropkicks
07-28-2012, 11:35 PM
everyone can wrestle better than they are allowed to, noone is often permitted. small movesets sell character. if everybody has 5 moves, noone overlaps. the difference with punk and brian at first was we were getting more wrestling than usual for top guys, but now even that seems to be changed.

cena isn't a technical genius.

not sure I'd say kidd is better than bryan but could be. honestly in terms of consistently complex and exciting ring work, there is nobody better than christian.