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View Full Version : Why do you like SCSA and The Rock?



Callum
07-14-2012, 12:40 PM
Imo, SCSA and The Rock are massively overrated.

Both of them are only average in the ring, SCSA's promos are average and The Rock rehashes the same material over and over again. I just want to know why you were such a fan of them in am era where The Undertaker, Kurt Angle, Chris Jericho, Shawn Michaels, Triple H, RVD, Kane, Booker T, Eddio Guerrero... were all vastly superior.

Today, 'smarks' go on about how they want decent matches on a weekly basis but The Rock and SCSA's matches were only ever average.

BadAndy
07-14-2012, 12:49 PM
I agree with The Rock. Stone Cold was limited by his mobility. I'm not sure we could really get a sense of if his in ring skills could match his mic work by the time he was at the height of his career. His Stunner was a powerfully awesome move though. As for The Rock, the more you watch of him, the more you see that he was just about using phrases. His in ring skills are ghastly to watch, I'd say almost on Ultimate Warrior level of awful. I think that the list you have is mostly comprised of wrestlers who were better, but The Rock and Stone Cold had more charisma than just about all of them put together and that's what pushed fans to "mark out" over them. As a side note, WWE destroyed Booker T by making him the Revolution/WCW carbon copy of The Rock with his move sets. He was much better before he arrived in WWE.

Dennis
07-14-2012, 01:03 PM
I agree with The Rock. Stone Cold was limited by his mobility. I'm not sure we could really get a sense of if his in ring skills could match his mic work by the time he was at the height of his career. His Stunner was a powerfully awesome move though. As for The Rock, the more you watch of him, the more you see that he was just about using phrases. His in ring skills are ghastly to watch, I'd say almost on Ultimate Warrior level of awful. I think that the list you have is mostly comprised of wrestlers who were better, but The Rock and Stone Cold had more charisma than just about all of them put together and that's what pushed fans to "mark out" over them. As a side note, WWE destroyed Booker T by making him the Revolution/WCW carbon copy of The Rock with his move sets. He was much better before he arrived in WWE.
Did you see that shawn and chris were on that list? they are not charisma push overs... the undertaker for his gimmick is pretty great... rvd was also on that list...! I totally agree the rock and scsa are two of the most overrated superstars ever... if you were to compare their abilities as wrestlers to lets say daniel bryan they look like jokes.. scsa especially

Cynicism
07-14-2012, 01:09 PM
I was never a massive fan of either of them, though I did appreciate stone cold more. It was not about the wrestling with him by the time I saw him it was that he was unpredictable and outspoken. The unpredictability was obviously down to creative to a great extent so I think I liked him cause he was right place. right time. I was cheering for Bret Hart and Michaels at the times they faced him though so he was never the top dog for me.

I was incredibly behind Y2J when he came in and fueded with The Rock, they were very similar at first on the mic, all catchphrases, but Jericho came out like a rockstar and I found that easy to get behind. Then I saw that Jericho could wrestle too and The Rock was pushes asside in my mind

Lowki
07-14-2012, 01:30 PM
Imo, SCSA and The Rock are massively overrated.

Both of them are only average in the ring, SCSA's promos are average and The Rock rehashes the same material over and over again. I just want to know why you were such a fan of them in am era where The Undertaker, Kurt Angle, Chris Jericho, Shawn Michaels, Triple H, RVD, Kane, Booker T, Eddio Guerrero... were all vastly superior.

Today, 'smarks' go on about how they want decent matches on a weekly basis but The Rock and SCSA's matches were only ever average.
There's more to a match than wrestling. There's obviously something great about those two to draw the highest ratings in wrestling history. Austin being the biggest merchandise seller ever also shows this. Entertainment > Wrestling talent. Stone cold and The Rock were massive because they knew how to get a person invested in their feuds. Stone Cold for example, is basically a guy everyone wished to be. Who wouldn't want to hit their boss? It rang true with everyone that sat down and watched him. He took shit over and over to finally kick his bosses ass. The difference between all of those you named and SCSA/The Rock? They don't touch them on the microphone. No, not even Jericho was as good as them (close, but never reached their heights). How can the two biggest draws ever be overrated? It just doesn't correlate. They are rated so highly because they drew so highly, it's common sense imo The both of them, no matter how repetitive, were gifted mic workers that just never got old. They both retired before their acts got really stale. The Rock still electrifys (with a minority starting to get bored of his catchphrases).
If they are overrated then what do we call Punk or Cena?

Sniffsquad
07-14-2012, 01:34 PM
Why do you guys always have to find something to bitch about? The only thing that matters if you can connect with the fans or not and they were great at that

wrestlingfan66513
07-14-2012, 01:38 PM
I was laughing when you all started mentioning reusing catchphrases. EVERYONE does this in wrestling, it's just after a few years they add something new or replace one phrase for another. The Rock had more phrases than most guys and they were really catchy which attracted fans. Austin was what Lowki said- everyone wanted to be him.

Lowki
07-14-2012, 01:39 PM
Did you see that shawn and chris were on that list? they are not charisma push overs... the undertaker for his gimmick is pretty great... rvd was also on that list...! I totally agree the rock and scsa are two of the most overrated superstars ever... if you were to compare their abilities as wrestlers to lets say daniel bryan they look like jokes.. scsa especially
You have to love people who watch one aspect of a wrestler and assume something. Early 1990s Stunning Steve Austin was actually a pretty good wrestler (i use this loosely). Like i've said; Austin and The Rock never needed to be wrestlers, they were entertaining enough like the were. Undertaker wasn't a great wrestler; he had the same moves over and over. Kane was the same.
Why was hogan the most popular superstar in the 80s when 90% of the roster were superior? What about Sting? Sting hardly held a candle to guys like Malenko, Benoit, Jericho, Booker. Why was Nash and Hall so popular? Wrestling has always been people who entertain over technical ability.
Nobody ever thinks of Austin and The Rock as fantastic wrestlers (Austin was before he came to WWF actually so joke, i doubt it).

This should be closed just for being a thread to moan. I mean seriously, the two biggest draws are overrated when they will never be remember as great technical wrestlers. The Rock was hardly THAT bad in the ring during 98-2003. The guy carried Hogan through a great match jeez.

Lowki
07-14-2012, 01:43 PM
I was laughing when you all started mentioning reusing catchphrases. EVERYONE does this in wrestling, it's just after a few years they add something new or replace one phrase for another. The Rock had more phrases than most guys and they were really catchy which attracted fans. Austin was what Lowki said- everyone wanted to be him.
I guess some people really don't GET wrestling sometimes lol. I mean, Daniel Bryan actually shouting "Yes!" has put him over with the fans rather than his ability. It shows that catchphrases work - it's why Bret Hart was always overshadowed by HBK even though he was a better wrestler. Bret was just plain boring to listen to.

wrestlingfan66513
07-14-2012, 01:51 PM
I guess some people really don't GET wrestling sometimes lol. I mean, Daniel Bryan actually shouting "Yes!" has put him over with the fans rather than his ability. It shows that catchphrases work - it's why Bret Hart was always overshadowed by HBK even though he was a better wrestler. Bret was just plain boring to listen to.

that's true. At least the Rock had a few new phrases when he came back. Also people expecting 1 guy to put on an amazing match every week is unrealistic. If we had that then there wouldn't be much ground left to cover and the talent would get burnt out really quick.

akbar
07-14-2012, 02:33 PM
No one, No one will ever be able to connect and have chemistry with the audience like these 2 did. And trusstt mee, that's the most important thing in wrestling.

Playboy Stevie V
07-14-2012, 02:49 PM
One word...personality

Dennis
07-14-2012, 02:53 PM
You have to love people who watch one aspect of a wrestler and assume something. Early 1990s Stunning Steve Austin was actually a pretty good wrestler (i use this loosely). Like i've said; Austin and The Rock never needed to be wrestlers, they were entertaining enough like the were. Undertaker wasn't a great wrestler; he had the same moves over and over. Kane was the same.
Why was hogan the most popular superstar in the 80s when 90% of the roster were superior? What about Sting? Sting hardly held a candle to guys like Malenko, Benoit, Jericho, Booker. Why was Nash and Hall so popular? Wrestling has always been people who entertain over technical ability.
Nobody ever thinks of Austin and The Rock as fantastic wrestlers (Austin was before he came to WWF actually so joke, i doubt it).

This should be closed just for being a thread to moan. I mean seriously, the two biggest draws are overrated when they will never be remember as great technical wrestlers. The Rock was hardly THAT bad in the ring during 98-2003. The guy carried Hogan through a great match jeez.
Don't get me wrong I don't hate either of these guys... the rock can carry a match but if you were to ask me who I liked watching in the ring more the rock or cm punk I would say cm punk.. I enjoy the charisma of the rock so I wouldn't judge me for saying he is overrated he was a great talent :) same goes for scsa I enjoyed is antics and I enjoyed his matches against Hbk but if we were going to compare those two superstars as who was the better in ring performer I don't think that's even close.. shawn is a much better in ring performer.. and I think you should look at your claim ( the rock and scsa aren't overrated) and look at how you warrant your claim ( they were popular because they are entertaining) using that logic I'm pretty sure the master of the you can't see me would be your favorite superstar today... unless I am reading your logic wrong.. feel free to correct me if I'm wrong

Callum
07-14-2012, 02:58 PM
This was never meant to be a 'bitching' thread as some of you have put it. I wondered why you liked them as I've always found them boring. The latest WBC top 5 which was on comedy moments reminded me of this as both of them had a few SCSA/The Rock moments in their list which personally I didn't find funny as I felt they went on too long (similarly to this paragraph).

To me Austin/Rock were that generations Cena - limited moveset, repetitive promos, boring matches. ...and the only reason every one likes them is because that's when they were the kids watching just like how the kids of today cheer Cena

Playboy Stevie V
07-14-2012, 03:04 PM
Wrestling talent does not always draw like mic skills and characters. If talent alone headlined, then last years WM would have had Tyson Kidd vs Evan Borne as the main event.

I don't see how anyone can call Austin or the Rock overrated. They filled up arenas and sold a nauseating amount of merchandise. Their returns are usually followed by excitement and ratings.

I think the term overrated is not being used right. Overrated would be someone who thinks they are great, but can't fill up a bingo hall.

I'll give you an example....Jeff Jarrett...Overrated

akbar
07-14-2012, 03:04 PM
This was never meant to be a 'bitching' thread as some of you have put it. I wondered why you liked them as I've always found them boring. The latest WBC top 5 which was on comedy moments reminded me of this as both of them had a few SCSA/The Rock moments in their list which personally I didn't find funny as I felt they went on too long (similarly to this paragraph).

To me Austin/Rock were that generations Cena - limited moveset, repetitive promos, boring matches. ...and the only reason every one likes them is because that's when they were the kids watching just like how the kids of today cheer Cena
Who doesn't repeat their promos? Those 2 probably done it the least.

Playboy Stevie V
07-14-2012, 03:21 PM
Here's a interesting scenario.

If the WWE held two events in the same town, untelevised, with unlimited seating, but you could only see one. One arenas headline was Punk vs DB. The other was the Rock vs Stone Cold, who would sell more tickets and merchandise?

My money is on Austin vs Rock.

BadAndy
07-14-2012, 03:22 PM
There are catch phrases then there is what The Rock does. Jericho, Bryan, HHH, etc. can have their catch phrases that they use during a promo. The Rock on the other hand made the same promos over and over again because it was just a string of catch phrases. Watch the first time Jericho appears on RAW. He uses a few catch phrases but he does this seamless promo that says why he's there. Then The Rock speaks and it's just one phrase dropped after the other. Rocky was really put in his place. His leadup to WM against Cena was more of the same. Cena talked circles around Rock. The Rock made some incredibly fun promos but it was like they were cut and pasted from 10 years ago. Stone Cold had his catch phrases but damn that man could also cut a great promo beyond his phrases. That is what I mean when I say the repetition. And no I'm not hating, just stating fact.

akbar
07-14-2012, 03:25 PM
Here's a interesting scenario.

If the WWE held two events in the same town, untelevised, with unlimited seating, but you could only see one. One arenas headline was Punk vs DB. The other was the Rock vs Stone Cold, who would sell more tickets and merchandise?

My money is on Austin vs Rock.
How someone attracts other people shouldn't effect your opinion.

Playboy Stevie V
07-14-2012, 03:30 PM
How someone attracts other people shouldn't effect your opinion.

Dont understand that statement? How some attracts affecting my opinion? Huh?

Dennis
07-14-2012, 03:31 PM
How someone attracts other people shouldn't effect your opinion.
agreed.. I bet the iwc would be pretty split those matches as well.. obviously the casual fan would go to the rock vs scsa match.. that definitely doesn't mean it is a better quality match as I can assume we all know the punk match would be a much better match

Playboy Stevie V
07-14-2012, 03:35 PM
agreed.. I bet the iwc would be pretty split those matches as well.. obviously the casual fan would go to the rock vs scsa match.. that definitely doesn't mean it is a better quality match as I can assume we all know the punk match would be a much better match

Agreed, but the wrestling industry is about drawing. If it wasnt and the industry really cared about pleasing the IWC and match qualities then John Cena would be gone. But hes the biggest draw now.

akbar
07-14-2012, 03:38 PM
Dont understand that statement? How some attracts affecting my opinion? Huh?
I don't see then why you are saying that in this thread then, it asked 'why you like', so I assumed it was the reason for you likeing them by you saying that. Or else why you talking about how they draw?!?

Dennis
07-14-2012, 03:44 PM
Agreed, but the wrestling industry is about drawing. If it wasnt and the industry really cared about pleasing the IWC and match qualities then John Cena would be gone. But hes the biggest draw now.
I'm confused on why draws are important as far as being overrated goes... If i were to say that tom cruise is overrated because he is a bad actor and you were to say that well he might be a bad actor but he gets people to the movies I'd say well if he is a bad actor and he gets people to go to the movies because of him that is the definition of being overrated.. ergo if you think austin and the rock would put on a worse match than punk vs bryan because you thing the latter are both better wrestlers you are just falling into my premise of rock and austin being overrated because they draw people to watch them even though they are second rate as you accepted

Playboy Stevie V
07-14-2012, 03:45 PM
I don't see then why you are saying that in this thread then, it asked 'why you like', so I assumed it was the reason for you likeing them by you saying that. Or else why you talking about how they draw?!?

I'm talking about the term that was used initially "overrated"

Its not about who I like..LOL Live unbiased. But drawing power does not equal "overrated" regardless how the match quality is. That's the nature of the business and that's how Vince built the E to the global powerhouse it is now. He took the belt off a ring general like Backlund and went with Hulk.

Doesn't drawing mean people like them?

Dennis
07-14-2012, 03:49 PM
I'm talking about the term that was used initially "overrated"

Its not about who I like..LOL Live unbiased. But drawing power does not equal "overrated" regardless how the match quality is. That's the nature of the business and that's how Vince built the E to the global powerhouse it is now. He took the belt off a ring general like Backlund and went with Hulk.
we are saying as a wrestler they are overrated.. and I might catch some heat for this.. but hulk is the definition of overrated!

Lowki
07-14-2012, 03:53 PM
I'll give you an example....Jeff Jarrett...Overrated
This. Overrated are main eventers who really didn't deserve the spots they had.
I'd definitely put Kevin Nash, Scott Steiner, Jarrett, DDP. You are overrated if people think higher of you than they should - If Stone Cold, and to a lesser extent Rock, weren't in WWF; the main eventers of Undertaker, Mankind, Triple H would've probably lost to WCW.


This was never meant to be a 'bitching' thread as some of you have put it. I wondered why you liked them as I've always found them boring. The latest WBC top 5 which was on comedy moments reminded me of this as both of them had a few SCSA/The Rock moments in their list which personally I didn't find funny as I felt they went on too long (similarly to this paragraph).

To me Austin/Rock were that generations Cena - limited moveset, repetitive promos, boring matches. ...and the only reason every one likes them is because that's when they were the kids watching just like how the kids of today cheer Cena
Stone Cold and The Rock dominated the 18-45 demographic lol They are definitely nothing like Cena. Just because you and one other think they are boring and overrated means nothing when 90% of WWE wrestlers have limited move sets. CM Punk is 90% rest holds, Corner knee bulldog, GTS. The only time he gets a big pop in a match is anaconda vice or Macho Man elbow. I'm sorry, but wrestling matches don't draw as big as you think.


Don't get me wrong I don't hate either of these guys... the rock can carry a match but if you were to ask me who I liked watching in the ring more the rock or cm punk I would say cm punk.. I enjoy the charisma of the rock so I wouldn't judge me for saying he is overrated he was a great talent :) same goes for scsa I enjoyed is antics and I enjoyed his matches against Hbk but if we were going to compare those two superstars as who was the better in ring performer I don't think that's even close.. shawn is a much better in ring performer.. and I think you should look at your claim ( the rock and scsa aren't overrated) and look at how you warrant your claim ( they were popular because they are entertaining) using that logic I'm pretty sure the master of the you can't see me would be your favorite superstar today... unless I am reading your logic wrong.. feel free to correct me if I'm wrong
You are reading my logic wrong because Cena doesn't have the personality and isn't entertaining. Therefore using my logic he isn't that popular, which is technically true. Adults boo john cena because he's shoved down our throats and adults just don't connect with the guy. There's nothing about him really and that's when his flaws in the ring come to the surface. I'd rather watch Austin v Rock matches than CM Punk if we are going down that road. CM Punk has never wrestled in a classic. Austin and Rock have. People can go on about wrestling as much as they want, but most of the memorable and "greatest" matches are usually between non-wrestlers. Attitude Era was huge because it was more about entertainment than today's WWE. Today's WWE does have a lot better wrestling matches, but it doesn't necessarily mean they have that spark that the attitude era "story telling" matches had.

Playboy Stevie V
07-14-2012, 03:54 PM
we are saying as a wrestler they are overrated.. and I might catch some heat for this.. but hulk is the definition of overrated!

Agreed, but the initial question covered more than just wrestling ability. But if now the question is just about ability then Ricky Steamboat should be god. But unfortunatly it does not work that way.

akbar
07-14-2012, 03:55 PM
Depends what you mean by overrated?

Is Hulk overrated as a wrestler...no because no one rates him highly in that field.
Is Hulk overrated in his popularity...no because he was popular as any wrestler can get, and every bit of hype said about him is true.
Is Hulk overrated in his Promo skills...no because again, no one says he cut great promos.

Lowki
07-14-2012, 03:57 PM
we are saying as a wrestler they are overrated.. and I might catch some heat for this.. but hulk is the definition of overrated!
Hulk was a house hold name, even to people who never watched wrestling. In the late 80s this guy was everywhere! Hulk Hogan was huge because Vince pinched him from AWA and pushed him as a major force which helped him get a national TV spot. After this he managed to buy Georgia championship wrestlings saturday slot. Hogan was also part of the NWO, something that nearly put WWF out of business and was a phenomenon during it's peak period!

Vince has mentioned 100s of times how valuable Stone Cold was to him. Vince rarely ever publicly states whether he likes a wrestler, but he has always said austin was the greatest superstar EVER.

Hulk Hogan past 1998 was overrated though.

supergoing
07-14-2012, 04:21 PM
Steve Austin during his prime as "Stone Cold" had one of the greatest grasps of in-ring psychology of any wrestler in the history of pro wrestling. He was evidently limited by what he could do physically at that stage and thus was a typical "brawler" type, but absolutely everything he did meant something. Every punch, every maneuver, there was no wasted motion with Stone Cold. He was also a champion seller that had the right balance down. (although Haitch was probably the GOAT seller from that era) And his intensity drew amazing pops as a face, and he had perfect timing with the heel shenanigans during the Invasion. (an underrated heel run IMO) Cool highspot moves and high workrate isn't everything.

Of course, that's just Stone Cold as the post-Neck injury punch-kick dude, and not every smark is keen on brawlers. Well, no dice there either mate, because he had also proven himself as a great technical guy during his WCW stint. (and occasionally in the WWE - particularly in his matches against Chris Benoit.... Actually, the entire story of one of their earlier matches was Benoit calling out Austin as being a shit "WRESTLER", to which Austin replied with surprisingly amazing chain wrestling technical wizardy shizz)

As for The Rock, I kinda agree. Again, he was somewhat of a master psychologist in his prime and had the intensity going for him, but he wasn't awfully varied and it did get pretty stale rather fast. I was rewatching some of the Attitude Era PPVs over 2011, and you can actually hear a good contingent of the crowd turn on him by late 2000. (I also got bored with him as a young teen round about the time he returned from The Scorpion King too)

Playboy Stevie V
07-14-2012, 04:31 PM
Steve Austin during his prime as "Stone Cold" had one of the greatest grasps of in-ring psychology of any wrestler in the history of pro wrestling. He was evidently limited by what he could do physically at that stage and thus was a typical "brawler" type, but absolutely everything he did meant something. Every punch, every maneuver, there was no wasted motion with Stone Cold. He was also a champion seller that had the right balance down. (although Haitch was probably the GOAT seller from that era) And his intensity drew amazing pops as a face, and he had perfect timing with the heel shenanigans during the Invasion. (an underrated heel run IMO) Cool highspot moves and high workrate isn't everything.

Of course, that's just Stone Cold as the post-Neck injury punch-kick dude, and not every smark is keen on brawlers. Well, no dice there either mate, because he had also proven himself as a great technical guy during his WCW stint. (and occasionally in the WWE - particularly in his matches against Chris Benoit.... Actually, the entire story of one of their earlier matches was Benoit calling out Austin as being a shit "WRESTLER", to which Austin replied with surprisingly amazing chain wrestling technical wizardy shizz)

As for The Rock, I kinda agree. Again, he was somewhat of a master psychologist in his prime and had the intensity going for him, but he wasn't awfully varied and it did get pretty stale rather fast. I was rewatching some of the Attitude Era PPVs over 2011, and you can actually hear a good contingent of the crowd turn on him by late 2000. (I also got bored with him as a young teen round about the time he returned from The Scorpion King too)

^^^^ this regarding Austin. Don't forget his mat technical classic against Steamboat in WCW. That's when he officially got my attention.

Dennis
07-14-2012, 04:38 PM
@lowki- I am not attacking the hulks importance to wrestling.. I'm questioning his wrestling abilities.. what are limited ... and for john cena I think he is more entertaining then most of the IWC gives him credit for.. he cuts decent promos and doesn't have terrible ppv matches.. though some people who watch wrestling with me laugh at the fact that I can call out what his next move is when he starts his five moves of doom haha.. to clarify I think john cena is overrated as well.. I think the fact is that I watch wrestling matches for match quality and you watch it for the soap opera of it.. thus our opinion is most always going to be different beings the fact I'm more of a pure wrestling fan and your more of a story wrestling fan... thus to me the rock, scsa, and hulk are overrated.
@playboy stevie v- I think I see where you are going.. but as a wrestler do you not think that scsa and hulk are overrated? I can see a better case for the rock being not.. even though I still think he is.. and as far as ricky steamboat goes he should be more respected because he was arguable the greatest pure wrestler in the history of pro wrestling and IMO one of the most underrated ever

Playboy Stevie V
07-14-2012, 04:47 PM
@lowki- I am not attacking the hulks importance to wrestling.. I'm questioning his wrestling abilities.. what are limited ... and for john cena I think he is more entertaining then most of the IWC gives him credit for.. he cuts decent promos and doesn't have terrible ppv matches.. though some people who watch wrestling with me laugh at the fact that I can call out what his next move is when he starts his five moves of doom haha.. to clarify I think john cena is overrated as well.. I think the fact is that I watch wrestling matches for match quality and you watch it for the soap opera of it.. thus our opinion is most always going to be different beings the fact I'm more of a pure wrestling fan and your more of a story wrestling fan... thus to me the rock, scsa, and hulk are overrated.
@playboy stevie v- I think I see where you are going.. but as a wrestler do you not think that scsa and hulk are overrated? I can see a better case for the rock being not.. even though I still think he is.. and as far as ricky steamboat goes he should be more respected because he was arguable the greatest pure wrestler in the history of pro wrestling and IMO one of the most underrated ever

To me it looks like the initial question was written or being read wrong, by judging from other answers besides just mine. I did not read the question on wrestling ability alone, but as a whole being overrated. Id have very different answers if I thought we were talking about ability strictly.

Because if we are talking overrated as a whole, I was basically pointing out how ability matters least in drawing power and popularty. People like big personalities and thats why the rock and scsa have so many fans.

Callum
07-14-2012, 04:51 PM
Steve Austin during his prime as "Stone Cold" had one of the greatest grasps of in-ring psychology of any wrestler in the history of pro wrestling. He was evidently limited by what he could do physically at that stage and thus was a typical "brawler" type, but absolutely everything he did meant something. Every punch, every maneuver, there was no wasted motion with Stone Cold. He was also a champion seller that had the right balance down. (although Haitch was probably the GOAT seller from that era) And his intensity drew amazing pops as a face, and he had perfect timing with the heel shenanigans during the Invasion. (an underrated heel run IMO) Cool highspot moves and high workrate isn't everything.

Of course, that's just Stone Cold as the post-Neck injury punch-kick dude, and not every smark is keen on brawlers. Well, no dice there either mate, because he had also proven himself as a great technical guy during his WCW stint. (and occasionally in the WWE - particularly in his matches against Chris Benoit.... Actually, the entire story of one of their earlier matches was Benoit calling out Austin as being a shit "WRESTLER", to which Austin replied with surprisingly amazing chain wrestling technical wizardy shizz)

As for The Rock, I kinda agree. Again, he was somewhat of a master psychologist in his prime and had the intensity going for him, but he wasn't awfully varied and it did get pretty stale rather fast. I was rewatching some of the Attitude Era PPVs over 2011, and you can actually hear a good contingent of the crowd turn on him by late 2000. (I also got bored with him as a young teen round about the time he returned from The Scorpion King too)

I appreciate that SCSA was limited in what he could do in the ring due to his injury but I've never known why people enjoyed his promos. Imo, Kane and Jericho have always been better and they rarely rehash their catchphrases - Kane doesn't have one and is the most underrated talker and Jericho always trys new stuff.

As for the Rock, Cena was The Rock's replacement. As others have said The Rocks promos are just a string off catchphrases and his finishers an elbow drop. Really?

Cabers
07-14-2012, 04:59 PM
I appreciate that SCSA was limited in what he could do in the ring due to his injury but I've never known why people enjoyed his promos. Imo, Kane and Jericho have always been better and they rarely rehash their catchphrases - Kane doesn't have one and is the most underrated talker and Jericho always trys new stuff.

As for the Rock, Cena was The Rock's replacement. As others have said The Rocks promos are just a string off catchphrasrd and bis finishers an elbow drop. Really?

Complete agree with your synopsis of Kane and Jericho they are fantastic on the mic and in ring.

I do think that the rock's finisher is shit!

Dennis
07-14-2012, 05:06 PM
To me it looks like the initial question was written or being read wrong, by judging from other answers besides just mine. I did not read the question on wrestling ability alone, but as a whole being overrated. Id have very different answers if I thought we were talking about ability strictly.

Because if we are talking overrated as a whole, I was basically pointing out how ability matters least in drawing power and popularty. People like big personalities and thats why the rock and scsa have so many fans.
if we were to follow your definition of being overrated then no one could be overrated because as long as they can draw they are good.. I.E. though john cena is not a great wrestler his mic skills would make it so he isn't overrated

Playboy Stevie V
07-14-2012, 05:13 PM
if we were to follow your definition of being overrated then no one could be overrated because as long as they can draw they are good.. I.E. though john cena is not a great wrestler his mic skills would make it so he isn't overrated

How so when i specifically pointed out jarrett as being overrated and gave you the definition of why? LOL

Dennis
07-14-2012, 05:18 PM
How so when i specifically pointed out jarrett as being overrated and gave you the definition of why? LOL
but if he got people to watch his shows then by your definition he isn't overrated.. what he did do IMO for tna..

Playboy Stevie V
07-14-2012, 05:30 PM
but if he got people to watch his shows then by your definition he isn't overrated.. what he did do IMO for tna..

Are you seriously putting MSG on the same level as the Impact zone? Lets not twist words to be silly.

Dennis
07-14-2012, 06:09 PM
Are you seriously putting MSG on the same level as the Impact zone? Lets not twist words to be silly.
I'm not twisting words to be silly haha.. but no one expects jarrett to sell out MSG.. thus he isn't overrated because he isn't suppose to sell out msg

Playboy Stevie V
07-14-2012, 06:18 PM
I'm not twisting words to be silly haha.. but no one expects jarrett to sell out MSG.. thus he isn't overrated because he isn't suppose to sell out msg

But there was a point in time he thought he could. I remember he gave Vince the ultimatum to get rid of Austin or him cause he thought he was on the same level. To make a long story short, he was on Nitro the following week.

Dennis
07-14-2012, 06:45 PM
But there was a point in time he thought he could. I remember he gave Vince the ultimatum to get rid of Austin or him cause he thought he was on the same level. To make a long story short, he was on Nitro the following week.
that's him overrating himself not people overrating him... IMO while that is silly of him to think it doesn't make him overrated just silly haha

Double Axehandle
07-14-2012, 06:54 PM
Imo, SCSA and The Rock are massively overrated.

Both of them are only average in the ring, SCSA's promos are average and The Rock rehashes the same material over and over again. I just want to know why you were such a fan of them in am era where The Undertaker, Kurt Angle, Chris Jericho, Shawn Michaels, Triple H, RVD, Kane, Booker T, Eddio Guerrero... were all vastly superior.

Today, 'smarks' go on about how they want decent matches on a weekly basis but The Rock and SCSA's matches were only ever average.

SCSA was only limited in the ring after his neck was broken. Go back and watch his matches before that near career ending injury and you'll see how good he was. No one comes back from a serious injury the same as before but his promo work was very sharp and he had the most important thing for a superstar wrestler: charisma. That's something you can't teach. The rock, well he's the rock a funny guy with a limited move set but like Austin tons of charisma. Kane, booker, trips and even the UT couldn't sell out the massive arenas Austin and the rock were doing at he height of the AE. You will learn my friend that in life the best skilled person is not always the most appreciated one.

Playboy Stevie V
07-14-2012, 07:03 PM
that's him overrating himself not people overrating him... IMO while that is silly of him to think it doesn't make him overrated just silly haha

I guess depending on how you want to approach the meaning of overrated.

Me personally think that wrestlers who want to be paid as if they draw main event numbers when they really don't, are overrated.

It looks like you have a different formula

The Brown One
07-14-2012, 07:29 PM
Are The Rock and Stone Cold overated? I've said yes before in the past, but I'd say that it's Attitude Era marks that make them seem overated. They weren't as great as everyone made them out to be. Both of them were only decent in the ring, and had simple repetitive catchphrases - moreso than the wrestlers of today.

But I liked them for reasons other than wrestling. The Rock could captivate people just by showing up, and delivered promos charismatically. Stone Cold was, simply put, a badass. He did what he wanted, to whomever he wanted, and was involved in some of the best storylines in WWF history.

Brendan
07-14-2012, 07:40 PM
I guess some people really don't GET wrestling sometimes lol. I mean, Daniel Bryan actually shouting "Yes!" has put him over with the fans rather than his ability. It shows that catchphrases work - it's why Bret Hart was always overshadowed by HBK even though he was a better wrestler. Bret was just plain boring to listen to.

Bret Hart was never overshadowed by Shawn Micheals and I have no idea where you would get that from. When Bret Hart dropped the belt to Shawn in 1996, ratings and attendance dropped and while Bret wasn't great on the mic, he was good enough to get his point across and besides he got over as a huge draw without help from WWE because of his ability to tell a story in the ring.

Dubs
07-14-2012, 11:15 PM
I always liked Stone Cold and The Rock because they were entertaining, funny, and knew how to captivate a crowd. Whether they said the same catchphrases or not, I don't think there is anyone during the Attitude Era that truly knew how to work a crowd like Stone Cold and The Rock did. Chris Jericho even mentions this in The Rock's DVD. Both Stone Cold and The Rock had a lot of charisma to them that got them over with the fans. I can understand why people say that they can't really get behind Stone Cold and The Rock's mic work though. Different strokes for different folks. Although I don't think that makes them overrated. It's just much of a subjective opinion.

As for Stone Cold and The Rock's in-ring ability along with work-rate, well, they aren't considered a Lou Thesz or a Nick Bockwinkel in the ring but they were still great workers who always put on entertaining performances. Stone Cold had great in-ring story-telling as proven so in his matches with Bret Hart, Kurt Angle, and Chris Benoit. Stone Cold knew how to go technical but it didn't fit his character of a badass which is why he changed his wrestling style to a brawler type style. His neck injury also played a part in the change of his wrestling style.

The Rock wasn't a great technician and even as a Rocky fan I can admit to that but that hasn't stopped him from putting on entertaining performances with the likes of Chris Benoit, Chris Jericho, and Stone Cold himself. He had his own style which made his in-ring ability different from others. Granted he oversold a lot but Shawn Michaels did as well and hes still considered one of the greatest performers to ever step in a ring. The Rock got the crowd emotionally invested in his matches which is all that matters in professional wrestling. You can have a great, technically sound match but if the crowd isn't emotionally invested in your match, than that's a problem.

I don't think their mic work and in-ring ability is overestimated because they knew how to entertain the crowd but like I said, I can truly understand why some people aren't a fan of their work. I'm not much of a Brock Lesnar fan and thought he was boring to watch but he still is a great performer.

Rick BoA
07-14-2012, 11:42 PM
I was never a big fan of stone cold. His what chants made me hate him for ever, and even before that I never thought he was very good.

I was a huge Rocky fan when I was younger. He was funny and entertaining to watch.

LegendsMadeWrestling
07-15-2012, 04:20 AM
This was never meant to be a 'bitching' thread as some of you have put it. I wondered why you liked them as I've always found them boring. The latest WBC top 5 which was on comedy moments reminded me of this as both of them had a few SCSA/The Rock moments in their list which personally I didn't find funny as I felt they went on too long (similarly to this paragraph).

To me Austin/Rock were that generations Cena - limited moveset, repetitive promos, boring matches. ...and the only reason every one likes them is because that's when they were the kids watching just like how the kids of today cheer Cena

Are you kidding me seriously!! what's wrong with you people these days did you guys get brain washed by watching to much boring Cena and boring Punk. I mean you calling The Rock & Austin Overrated while these two have had SOLD OUT ARENAS & HIGH PPV BUYS FOR YRS and you call them Overrated the fuck outta here, John Cena & Cm Punk can't even sell out an arena not even last yrs MITB was Sold Out just to show today's Wrestling Entertainment SUCKS!!!. People in this World know Who HOGAN, STONE COLD, THE ROCK, UNDERTAKER, MACHO MAN and ANDRE THE GIANT because Wrestling back then it was entertaining to watch I don't care if you say well people know who John Cena is to be honest Cena is not even that Popular neither is Punk mostly all the wrestlers of today will NEVER!!! be known in the future because people got tired of watching how bad, boring and just not entertaining wrestling is. NUFF SAID

Wade Barrett 1979
07-15-2012, 06:10 AM
[/B]
Are you kidding me seriously!! what's wrong with you people these days did you guys get brain washed by watching to much boring Cena and boring Punk. I mean you calling The Rock & Austin Overrated while these two have had SOLD OUT ARENAS & HIGH PPV BUYS FOR YRS and you call them Overrated the fuck outta here, John Cena & Cm Punk can't even sell out an arena not even last yrs MITB was Sold Out just to show today's Wrestling Entertainment SUCKS!!!. People in this World know Who HOGAN, STONE COLD, THE ROCK, UNDERTAKER, MACHO MAN and ANDRE THE GIANT because Wrestling back then it was entertaining to watch I don't care if you say well people know who John Cena is to be honest Cena is not even that Popular neither is Punk mostly all the wrestlers of today will NEVER!!! be known in the future because people got tired of watching how bad, boring and just not entertaining wrestling is. NUFF SAID

He mad! Look at all the capital letters!!

Lowki
07-15-2012, 06:15 AM
if we were to follow your definition of being overrated then no one could be overrated because as long as they can draw they are good.. I.E. though john cena is not a great wrestler his mic skills would make it so he isn't overrated
Cena isn't overrated because nobody claims he's an amazing wrestler. Nobody claims he's one of the best on the mic either. People understand his position because he appeals to kids and is also a huge marketing machine that does a lot outisde of the ring for the company (especially promotion wise). Overrated would be Del Rio and Sin Cara. The reason being that they are known to be fantastic athletes and wrestlers over in mexico but in the WWE they haven't showed anything to live up to their hypes. Lesnar is overrated currently, as was Tensai when he returned. People were banging on about how good Tensai was in japan but comes back and does nothing of significance (and is boring to watch!) Lesnar returns, loses, and besides breaking Hs arm, has done nothing for his hype. Ric Flair could sell (sometimes too well which made it cheesy as hell) and could cut great promos but for most of his career, he wasn't THAT good. Especially his later runs in WCW; he definitely didn't earn his title runs with in ring ability.


I appreciate that SCSA was limited in what he could do in the ring due to his injury but I've never known why people enjoyed his promos. Imo, Kane and Jericho have always been better and they rarely rehash their catchphrases - Kane doesn't have one and is the most underrated talker and Jericho always trys new stuff.

As for the Rock, Cena was The Rock's replacement. As others have said The Rocks promos are just a string off catchphrases and his finishers an elbow drop. Really?
Kane is good on a mic but he is also quite dull when he isn't playing mind games. "I'm a monster" promos that follow a week later with him kissing AJ - Ok. Creative ruin Kane consistantly.

I'm not attacking or anything but all i'm saying is that pro-wrestling will never be about technical ability. It was only until the mid-90s did this actually become important. Stone Cold and The Rock have so many classic promos.
I agree with your cena comments too. He isn't bad at all - but he is extremely kid orientated and isn't ashamed to say that. The Rock cuts just as cheesy, cheap pop promos but doesn't state out right he's loved by kids more than adults. The Rock and Austin could do anything and hold you in the palm of their hands. I'd say technical wrestling is the LOWEST on what the majority of people want to see! It's why people go out of their way to stream WWE and TNA rather than try and watch poresu or even ROH. I guarantee more people will sit and watch attitude era reruns over ROH.This is why people also complain about how bad 1995 was for the WWF even though it was the first time they had smaller guys (just like today) wrestling. Not entertaining like most of the 80s, but actually wrestling. This was shit on heavily though.


Steve Austin during his prime as "Stone Cold" had one of the greatest grasps of in-ring psychology of any wrestler in the history of pro wrestling. He was evidently limited by what he could do physically at that stage and thus was a typical "brawler" type, but absolutely everything he did meant something. Every punch, every maneuver, there was no wasted motion with Stone Cold. He was also a champion seller that had the right balance down. (although Haitch was probably the GOAT seller from that era) And his intensity drew amazing pops as a face, and he had perfect timing with the heel shenanigans during the Invasion. (an underrated heel run IMO) Cool highspot moves and high workrate isn't everything.

Of course, that's just Stone Cold as the post-Neck injury punch-kick dude, and not every smark is keen on brawlers. Well, no dice there either mate, because he had also proven himself as a great technical guy during his WCW stint. (and occasionally in the WWE - particularly in his matches against Chris Benoit.... Actually, the entire story of one of their earlier matches was Benoit calling out Austin as being a shit "WRESTLER", to which Austin replied with surprisingly amazing chain wrestling technical wizardy shizz)

As for The Rock, I kinda agree. Again, he was somewhat of a master psychologist in his prime and had the intensity going for him, but he wasn't awfully varied and it did get pretty stale rather fast. I was rewatching some of the Attitude Era PPVs over 2011, and you can actually hear a good contingent of the crowd turn on him by late 2000. (I also got bored with him as a young teen round about the time he returned from The Scorpion King too)
All of this. Plus, I think the Rock in 2000 was more like Cena now. Rock definitely had the younger crowd. That's why i think Punk gets the odd stone cold comparison because every adult seems to enjoy punk more. The Rock as a heel in 2003 was great to watch though - most of his promos were less about catchphrases and he showed how good he was. Who could forget most of his hurricane skits or Rock appreciation with Goldberg and Austin?

Lowki
07-15-2012, 06:19 AM
Bret Hart was never overshadowed by Shawn Micheals and I have no idea where you would get that from. When Bret Hart dropped the belt to Shawn in 1996, ratings and attendance dropped and while Bret wasn't great on the mic, he was good enough to get his point across and besides he got over as a huge draw without help from WWE because of his ability to tell a story in the ring.
At the time of Hart dropping the title, the WWF was going through a horrible period in general. This may have aided the attendance decrease, but having a lacklustre roster didn't help things.

johnnydropkicks
07-15-2012, 07:36 AM
Triple H is vastly superior?

wat?

omg fuck that shit.

BadAndy
07-15-2012, 10:27 AM
Triple H is vastly superior?

wat?

omg fuck that shit.

Yup. He is one of the best on the mic. Again, people are short sighted and really only remember his PG stuff. And before he started having the quad injuries, he was an incredible performer in the ring. He had some great iron man matches among others. The injuries forced him more into the limited routine he now seems to do.

As far as someone calling Cena and Punk boring. The two of them are absolutely brilliant on the mic considering the rating that they are working with. If you give them the same rating as Stone Cold and The Rock, I'm sure that they could harsh it up and make their promos real edgy. Too many of you put one era of wrestling on a pedestal and refuse to budge on your thinking.

Dubs
07-15-2012, 10:41 AM
I also thought Triple H when he was portraying the Connecticut Blue Blood character was underrated as far as character and in-ring work goes. His cage match with Mandkind is one of my favorite cage matches in the WWE.

Lowki
07-15-2012, 11:36 AM
I also thought Triple H when he was portraying the Connecticut Blue Blood character was underrated as far as character and in-ring work goes. His cage match with Mandkind is one of my favorite cage matches in the WWE.
Worst thing triple H ever did was marry stephanie when it comes to actually rating him. People don't realize that he's always been a hard worker and, most importantly, untouchable when it comes to operating backstage.

Triple H is also underrated because of the amount of top stars they had at the time. Undertaker, Stone Cold, The Rock, mankind were already gaining huge momentum and Triple H never really got his props until 2000 onwards. What put me off Triple H was 2003 when he was champion for over a year. Every Raw you could guarantee a 30minute promo to open the show, which slowly bored the hell out of me.


Yup. He is one of the best on the mic. Again, people are short sighted and really only remember his PG stuff. And before he started having the quad injuries, he was an incredible performer in the ring. He had some great iron man matches among others. The injuries forced him more into the limited routine he now seems to do.

As far as someone calling Cena and Punk boring. The two of them are absolutely brilliant on the mic considering the rating that they are working with. If you give them the same rating as Stone Cold and The Rock, I'm sure that they could harsh it up and make their promos real edgy. Too many of you put one era of wrestling on a pedestal and refuse to budge on your thinking.
Cena is not absolutely brilliant personally. If he was that good on the mic, fans wouldn't boo him. Nobody gets into his promos. Punk on the other hand, is pretty entertaining. Also, many past talents have had promo time during this current era and put Cena to shame on the mic. Cena alienates everyone by aiming his material at kids.

Destruction
07-15-2012, 11:42 AM
I was laughing when you all started mentioning reusing catchphrases. EVERYONE does this in wrestling, it's just after a few years they add something new or replace one phrase for another. The Rock had more phrases than most guys and they were really catchy which attracted fans. Austin was what Lowki said- everyone wanted to be him.

Boots to Asses is a new one for example

Dennis
07-15-2012, 12:11 PM
[/B]
Are you kidding me seriously!! what's wrong with you people these days did you guys get brain washed by watching to much boring Cena and boring Punk. I mean you calling The Rock & Austin Overrated while these two have had SOLD OUT ARENAS & HIGH PPV BUYS FOR YRS and you call them Overrated the fuck outta here, John Cena & Cm Punk can't even sell out an arena not even last yrs MITB was Sold Out just to show today's Wrestling Entertainment SUCKS!!!. People in this World know Who HOGAN, STONE COLD, THE ROCK, UNDERTAKER, MACHO MAN and ANDRE THE GIANT because Wrestling back then it was entertaining to watch I don't care if you say well people know who John Cena is to be honest Cena is not even that Popular neither is Punk mostly all the wrestlers of today will NEVER!!! be known in the future because people got tired of watching how bad, boring and just not entertaining wrestling is. NUFF SAID
to be fair I think most of the decline of popularity in the wwe has to do with the pg era not the superstars in the pg era.. the reason austin and rock were so awesome during promos is they could do a lot more.. and if you think punk is boring go back to the summer of punk plus remember out of the four wrestlers you listed punk is by far the best wrestler

Rick BoA
07-15-2012, 02:46 PM
to be fair I think most of the decline of popularity in the wwe has to do with the pg era not the superstars in the pg era.. the reason austin and rock were so awesome during promos is they could do a lot more.. and if you think punk is boring go back to the summer of punk plus remember out of the four wrestlers you listed punk is by far the best wrestler


LOL! What exactly makes punk a great wrestler? Is it because he botches 1/2 his moves? Is it because he cannot hit his finisher on the majority of the guys he faces? Or is it because you are a stupid mark and thing that because he does an absurd amount of wristlocks that he is a good wrestler.
CM Punk is no better then Cena. He has his little moveset and his only crowd reaction during his match is when he copys randy savage.

Dennis
07-15-2012, 04:52 PM
LOL! What exactly makes punk a great wrestler? Is it because he botches 1/2 his moves? Is it because he cannot hit his finisher on the majority of the guys he faces? Or is it because you are a stupid mark and thing that because he does an absurd amount of wristlocks that he is a good wrestler.
CM Punk is no better then Cena. He has his little moveset and his only crowd reaction during his match is when he copys randy savage.
cm punk doesn't botch half of his moves.. he puts on great matches and I didn't hop on the band wagon I have been a fan of his since he entered the wwe.. he can hit his finisher on pretty much everyone sure he might not be able to do it to the big show.. but he can do the gts to KANE... he can switch off moves with daniel bryan like no one else in the wwe (bryan being the best tech wrestler in the main event scene arguable the best period in the wwe) I don't see your warrant to say he is a bad wrestler you are actually the only person I have ever seen actually call into question his in ring ability.. and as far as punk having a small move set... I'm pretty sure you should re-watch his matches he is unpredictable I have been watching wrestling for a long time and excluding the great tech wrestlers he has the widest range of ability from high flying to tech wrestling to just straight up kicks to the head.. also cm punk doesn't have the five moves of doom what makes him different than the other major faces.

BadAndy
07-15-2012, 05:05 PM
Cena is not absolutely brilliant personally. If he was that good on the mic, fans wouldn't boo him. Nobody gets into his promos. Punk on the other hand, is pretty entertaining. Also, many past talents have had promo time during this current era and put Cena to shame on the mic. Cena alienates everyone by aiming his material at kids.

I'm far from a Cena fan but even I realize how good he is on the mic. He doesn't aim his promos at kids at all. Hell, half of his references are from when he and I were kids (we are close in age). He gets booed because guys like you, me and others know he's not that good in the ring. It is absolutely absurd to say he doesn't have mic skills. Wade Barrett has even said Cena is great at coming up with things to say on the fly.

Rick BoA
07-15-2012, 07:17 PM
Sorry but his matches are not unpredictible and he struggles hitting the GTS on anyone who weights over 200lbs. Sure his matches with D-Bry are entertaining but D-Bry is an amazing wrestler and can make most people look like they have skill.

I also never said he was a bad wrestler but saying that he is gods gift to wrestling is absurd. He would have been at best an upper mid carder 10 years ago. His high flying move is an elbow drop. By your logic Ric Flair is a high flyer because he goes to the top rope every match. His kicks look like crap, his running knee/bulldog is something I would expect the divas to use and he copied his entire moveset from someone who can actually wrestle.
What makes him so great? Its because sheeple like yourself believe everything you are told, so when punk keeps saying how he is the greatest wrestler in the world you believe it.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ouByG00sd7E

Try and find a SCSA match that looks that bad.

Dennis
07-15-2012, 07:52 PM
Sorry but his matches are not unpredictible and he struggles hitting the GTS on anyone who weights over 200lbs. Sure his matches with D-Bry are entertaining but D-Bry is an amazing wrestler and can make most people look like they have skill.

I also never said he was a bad wrestler but saying that he is gods gift to wrestling is absurd. He would have been at best an upper mid carder 10 years ago. His high flying move is an elbow drop. By your logic Ric Flair is a high flyer because he goes to the top rope every match. His kicks look like crap, his running knee/bulldog is something I would expect the divas to use and he copied his entire moveset from someone who can actually wrestle.
What makes him so great? Its because sheeple like yourself believe everything you are told, so when punk keeps saying how he is the greatest wrestler in the world you believe it.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ouByG00sd7E

Try and find a SCSA match that looks that bad.
first off that match was all the way back at wwecw if you don't think someone can improve your silly.. second off acting like I don't have wrestling knowledge because I say cm punk is better than scsa is sillier.. there have been plenty of other people during this blog to make the same statement plus its my opinion... questioning my intelligence as a viable reason to call me wrong is called a fallacy so who's logic is flawed? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yiWP5q0PMME that's an example of scsa way overselling... and I'm not saying punk is the greatest wrestler ever.. I said that daniel bryan is a better wrestler

Tomsta666
07-15-2012, 09:06 PM
If you didn't like the attitude era, you didn't like Stone Cold or the Rock.
Those guys defined that era! Simple as that really! :D