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View Full Version : Now maybe I'm being slow, but I just noticed something...



Kenny Kaos
07-10-2012, 08:14 AM
CM Punk - FACE
Sheamus - FACE
Kofi and Truth - FACE
Christian - FACE
Santino - FACE
Layla - FACE

PG Mania is running wild!

tchocky360
07-10-2012, 08:28 AM
CM Punk - FACE
Sheamus - FACE
Kofi and Truth - FACE
Christian - FACE
Santino - FACE
Layla - FACE

PG Mania is running wild!

I don't see face champs as anything to do with PG specifically. I don't even think it's hobbling slightly miffed, let alone running wild.

I forgot who the tag champs were, Layla, Santino and Christian don't even get matches...
Only two of the guys on that list get treated as champs they're supposed to be.

Lot of problems in WWE, but being PG isn't one of them.

Double Axehandle
07-10-2012, 08:29 AM
CM Punk - FACE
Sheamus - FACE
Kofi and Truth - FACE
Christian - FACE
Santino - FACE
Layla - FACE

PG Mania is running wild!

So whatcha gonna do when pg mania runs wild on you brother!

Kenny Kaos
07-10-2012, 08:35 AM
Maybe thats why its hobbling along. You're supposed to hate heels. You're supposed to love faces. A heel champion is a bigger hate figure. A face that has a long, arduous feud with a heel champion and, against all odds, gets a shock win over a heel champion is cheered twice as loudly.

Needs to be a mix for me. Wouldn't complain too much if Bryan or Del Rio or BOTH won on Sunday. Landscape needs shaking up. And what happened to the 30 day defence clause on the championship belts. Christian and Santino should defend their title on Raw/Smackdown every 2 weeks or on every PPV.

tchocky360
07-10-2012, 08:47 AM
Maybe thats why its hobbling along. You're supposed to hate heels. You're supposed to love faces. A heel champion is a bigger hate figure. A face that has a long, arduous feud with a heel champion and, against all odds, gets a shock win over a heel champion is cheered twice as loudly.

Needs to be a mix for me. Wouldn't complain too much if Bryan or Del Rio or BOTH won on Sunday. Landscape needs shaking up. And what happened to the 30 day defence clause on the championship belts. Christian and Santino should defend their title on Raw/Smackdown every 2 weeks or on every PPV.

They should but they don't, it's bad writing but that's not a fault of PG.
It's like saying the reason you can't write a best selling novel is because you've the wrong colour ink in your pen.

Faces in WWE are mostly bland and lacking personality.
R-Truth was flying high as a heel, got mic time and was over, turn him face, stick him with Kofi and no-one now cares about either of them.
Santino is talented, but they give him so much rubbish to work with as well, especially last night for an example that you get sick of him.
Christian, again heel, got given mic time, was over. Face return, pretty much nothing.

Sheamus personality wise, sucks as a face, he's grand in ring, he can be entertaining. But he acts a heel, hitting defenseless Swagger again just to show off in front of Del Rio is what a heel does. Attacking Del Rio from behind a few weeks back for no reason, it's what heels do...

They need to change this, it's a writing fault.
One excellent thing about TNA is they have much less just happy grinning faces and have guys with personality and depth.

Depth is something very few WWE guys seem to be allowed to have.

The stuff you complained about, you can still have with a PG model. You just can't have it have scripts are re-written up to going live and you don't bother planning long term stories.

bartish2
07-10-2012, 08:48 AM
Maybe thats why its hobbling along. You're supposed to hate heels. You're supposed to love faces. A heel champion is a bigger hate figure. A face that has a long, arduous feud with a heel champion and, against all odds, gets a shock win over a heel champion is cheered twice as loudly.

Needs to be a mix for me. Wouldn't complain too much if Bryan or Del Rio or BOTH won on Sunday. Landscape needs shaking up. And what happened to the 30 day defence clause on the championship belts. Christian and Santino should defend their title on Raw/Smackdown every 2 weeks or on every PPV.

I prefer heels because its not the same old get beaten up then against alllllllllllll odds come back and win. Its not just cena, (his is the worst though) all face champions basically do that. the heels have better matches & are more entertaining. faces are just boring after a while.

so what I am saying is wwe needs some heels. I mean who is their biggest heel? big show? who cares about him. they need some heel champions to make things interesting.

KJ PUNK
07-10-2012, 08:55 AM
Well, what heels would you give titles to? There's really only 3 that are good and that's Bryan, Ziggler and Rhodes. Del Rio barely gets a reaction, nobody wants to see Big Show win another championship, maybe Kane but I doubt he'll win again.

bartish2
07-10-2012, 08:56 AM
Well, what heels would you give titles to? There's really only 3 that are good and that's Bryan, Ziggler and Rhodes. Del Rio barely gets a reaction, nobody wants to see Big Show win another championship, maybe Kane but I doubt he'll win again.

i would doubt kane too, but I would be down for a kane reign

dashkatae
07-10-2012, 08:57 AM
Well the biggest part of the problem isn't that it's the pg era, it's the fact that there is a lack of quality heels at the moment. The big heels right now are Big Show, Alberto Del Rio, and Daniel Bryan. Daniel is becoming more of a tweener, alberto is boring, and big show is as well so putting the belt onto a lousy heel isn't going to make it much better.

Kenny Kaos
07-10-2012, 08:58 AM
Oh, you must know know me very well. I LOVE heels. My current favourite 3 in the 'E right now have to be Sandow, Bryan and Ziggler. Heels are by far the most interesting characters. Face's are mainly for the kids, although I must admit to liking CM Punk and Christian

akbar
07-10-2012, 09:07 AM
It's all going to change at MITB, or some surely will.

Bodom
07-10-2012, 09:10 AM
So you just realized that all the title holders are faces?

Congrats on your astute observation? *shrugs*

Kenny Kaos
07-10-2012, 09:20 AM
So you just realized that all the title holders are faces?

Congrats on your astute observation? *shrugs*

I just can't remember the last time EVERY SINGLE TITLE HOLDER on the roster was a face

Bodom
07-10-2012, 09:23 AM
I just can't remember the last time EVERY SINGLE TITLE HOLDER on the roster was a face

I'm making this your Official EWN Research Project.

Find out for us if this is the first time in WWE history it's happened and if not, when it last took place.


You have two weeks.

tchocky360
07-10-2012, 09:28 AM
I'm making this your Official EWN Research Project.

Find out for us if this is the first time in WWE history it's happened and if not, when it last took place.


You have two weeks.

And the same for heels. No good only having one half of the picture.

Bodom
07-10-2012, 09:40 AM
And the same for heels. No good only having one half of the picture.

Excellent idea.

BreakTheWalls
07-10-2012, 09:50 AM
It's pretty bad writing on WWE's part for all the Champions to be faces.
The face trying to beat the heel against all the odds is always the big draw, just look at Austin Aries beating Bobby Roode. Huge pop because he got the upset and won the gold!

King Scrapper
07-10-2012, 09:53 AM
Sheamus personality wise, sucks as a face, he's grand in ring, he can be entertaining. But he acts a heel, hitting defenseless Swagger again just to show off in front of Del Rio is what a heel does. Attacking Del Rio from behind a few weeks back for no reason, it's what heels do...



This is where your statement is flawed. Faces do all of the things here that you mentioned. Triple H when he was a face did this, so did Stone Cold, Randy Orton, The Rock, Undertaker. To be more accurate, this is the stuff a 'Super Face' does. One of those tweener characters that yes is a face and stands for all of the right things but still gets away with being a badass. This is exactly what they are trying to do with Sheamus. Make him as aggressive as possible so people will like him since they know that he cant really attach to the crowd through a microphone.

Kenny Kaos
07-10-2012, 09:54 AM
....thats a very hard ask. Gary Google and Wally Wikipedia are going to become my close friends

Bodom
07-10-2012, 09:58 AM
How about 4 weeks? and just a rough draft?

YOUcanCALLmeCRACK
07-10-2012, 10:04 AM
How about 4 weeks? and just a rough draft?

Well I am a visual learner so some graphs and maybe a presentation will help get the point across.

As a hint, check out when Eddie and Benoit had the belts.

Double Axehandle
07-10-2012, 10:06 AM
Well I am a visual learner so some graphs and maybe a presentation will help get the point across.

As a hint, check out when Eddie and Benoit had the belts.

Benoit never held the belt silly that part of history never happened. Just ask Vince.

Bodom
07-10-2012, 10:09 AM
Well I am a visual learner so some graphs and maybe a presentation will help get the point across.

As a hint, check out when Eddie and *REDACTED* had the belts.


This is an invalid period of time.

Wade Barrett 1979
07-10-2012, 10:11 AM
I also want to know how much wood could a woodchuck chuck, if a woodchuck could chuck wood?

Bodom
07-10-2012, 10:11 AM
I also want to know how much wood could a woodchuck chuck, if a woodchuck could chuck wood?

The answer is 7.3

tchocky360
07-10-2012, 10:13 AM
This is where your statement is flawed. Faces do all of the things here that you mentioned. Triple H when he was a face did this, so did Stone Cold, Randy Orton, The Rock, Undertaker. To be more accurate, this is the stuff a 'Super Face' does. One of those tweener characters that yes is a face and stands for all of the right things but still gets away with being a badass. This is exactly what they are trying to do with Sheamus. Make him as aggressive as possible so people will like him since they know that he cant really attach to the crowd through a microphone.

It's not a flawed statement to say that the good guys are supposed to be good guys for storytelling.
Orton is also a terrible face.
Super faces who attack people from behind or attack someone who is defenseless aren't faces. They're just so popular they can act how they want and the majority will still cheer them.

It shouldn't work that faces can do whatever they want as long as it's to a heel.

Take police for example. Supposed to protect us from the bad guys like a face does, doesn't go looking for trouble but good ones will go get the bad guys and bring them to justice.
That kind of officer would be a perfect good guy.

You wouldn't call him a super officer because after he handcuffed and arrested the crook, he then beat him with a nightstick. But Sheamus, Cena and Orton are written in the wrestling style of that.

It's crap storytelling when the top good guys act like bad guys but it's excused because of who the punishment is happening to.

In any classic Heroes vs Villains story, and wrestling is pretty much a constant running version of that, it's morality or a code of conduct that keeps the good guys from turning into the guys they fight against.
WWE ignores this, and it really lessens their faces and them getting as over as they could be.

Pittbull
07-10-2012, 10:27 AM
This is why at the moment a heel faction would be a good idea! Gives the face champions something decent to fight for!

Wade Barrett 1979
07-10-2012, 10:28 AM
The answer is 7.3

Dammit! That's cost me £20!

Kenny Kaos
07-10-2012, 10:35 AM
I would love to research this and make it my pet project. The fact of the matter is I don't have to the time!

Just joined a gym where I will be spending the majority of the next 3 months getting in shape. Swimming, row machine, weights. Not looking for Mason Ryan like physique, would settle just for fitting into an XL shirt instead of XXXL which I wear at the moment.

Between this, playing poker and my day to day life, I neither have the time nor energy to pursue such a pain staking task

Blinker
07-10-2012, 10:37 AM
I think what tchocky360 and King Scrapper are talking about isn't so much about what makes a person a face or something beyond a face. I think it's just a matter of defining the term "face". Like tchocky360 said "Heroes vs Villains story, and wrestling is pretty much a constant running version of that" Cena is a face just as much as Sheamus. Cena is the classic "hero". He stands for what is right and good, while taking the highest road possible. Sheamus also stands for what is right and good, but is willing to take whatever means he can to get there. Sheamus is following a path closer to an anti-hero. Stone Cold fit that role perfectly and Punk was riding it last summer. Just because he doesn't follow the highest path, doesn't mean he's evil or bad. It just means he's taking an alternative route. Sheamus is a more "realistic" hero and Cena is a more "fantasy" hero. Sheamus has flaws while Cena doesn't.

I don't think we can just say "Oh, they're not a face because they don't always do the right thing!" It's not so clear cut. We don't scream "Oh, he's not a heel because he got a clean win!!" because that would be done. Just because your good, doesn't mean you ALWAYS have to act good and the same goes for the bad guys.

That's my 2 cents.

Bodom
07-10-2012, 10:39 AM
I would love to research this and make it my pet project. The fact of the matter is I don't have to the time!

Just joined a gym where I will be spending the majority of the next 3 months getting in shape. Swimming, row machine, weights. Not looking for Mason Ryan like physique, would settle just for fitting into an XL shirt instead of XXXL which I wear at the moment.

Between this, playing poker and my day to day life, I neither have the time nor energy to pursue such a pain staking task

All I'm hearing are excuses.

Kenny Kaos
07-10-2012, 10:47 AM
All I'm hearing are excuses.

Nail on head ;)

tchocky360
07-10-2012, 10:54 AM
I think what tchocky360 and King Scrapper are talking about isn't so much about what makes a person a face or something beyond a face. I think it's just a matter of defining the term "face". Like tchocky360 said "Heroes vs Villains story, and wrestling is pretty much a constant running version of that" Cena is a face just as much as Sheamus. Cena is the classic "hero". He stands for what is right and good, while taking the highest road possible. Sheamus also stands for what is right and good, but is willing to take whatever means he can to get there. Sheamus is following a path closer to an anti-hero. Stone Cold fit that role perfectly and Punk was riding it last summer. Just because he doesn't follow the highest path, doesn't mean he's evil or bad. It just means he's taking an alternative route. Sheamus is a more "realistic" hero and Cena is a more "fantasy" hero. Sheamus has flaws while Cena doesn't.

I don't think we can just say "Oh, they're not a face because they don't always do the right thing!" It's not so clear cut. We don't scream "Oh, he's not a heel because he got a clean win!!" because that would be done. Just because your good, doesn't mean you ALWAYS have to act good and the same goes for the bad guys.

That's my 2 cents.

I'd disagree with Cena being a classic or fantasy hero as well though. He's called Ace a cripple and will also humiliate and beat on good guys after their done as well. Barrett vs Cena with all the chairs afterwards collapsing on him is an example of that.

It's true there are different types of 'good guys', and sometimes a good guy might not always play by the rules, Austin, Rock, Eddie G all did this.

My problem is that WWE will build guys as good, who aren't actually good guys. Like you say, Cena is their fantasy good guy, their Superman, but he doesn't look out for the population like Superman does.
He'll mock you for your sexuality or because you need a crutch to walk. Cena's character isn't a good guy, he just beats up on the 'bad' ones.
When you can't tell the difference between good and bad guys by their actions, and instead have to be told who is good and who is bad, that's not good character development.

All this stuff matters, and if they overlook simple basic of story writing like this, what chance have they of ever writing something decent long term.
They'll stumble across great ideas because they are creative, Nexus and CM Punk's last MitB run, but they aren't good enough to run with them and make it work short term let alone long.

We saw it this week with AJ, bright start fantastic work getting over in a small role, they tried include her more, we got a terrible wedding proposal couple months later.

We'll see this pattern of promising start, disappointing angle, a lot until they start paying attention to proper story telling.

King Scrapper
07-10-2012, 10:58 AM
It's not a flawed statement to say that the good guys are supposed to be good guys for storytelling.
Orton is also a terrible face.
Super faces who attack people from behind or attack someone who is defenseless aren't faces. They're just so popular they can act how they want and the majority will still cheer them.

It shouldn't work that faces can do whatever they want as long as it's to a heel.

Take police for example. Supposed to protect us from the bad guys like a face does, doesn't go looking for trouble but good ones will go get the bad guys and bring them to justice.
That kind of officer would be a perfect good guy.

You wouldn't call him a super officer because after he handcuffed and arrested the crook, he then beat him with a nightstick. But Sheamus, Cena and Orton are written in the wrestling style of that.

It's crap storytelling when the top good guys act like bad guys but it's excused because of who the punishment is happening to.

In any classic Heroes vs Villains story, and wrestling is pretty much a constant running version of that, it's morality or a code of conduct that keeps the good guys from turning into the guys they fight against.
WWE ignores this, and it really lessens their faces and them getting as over as they could be.

But it doesnt have to be that my dear friend. There is no law that wrestling has to consistently be heroes vs villains or bad vs good. Wrestling is a male soap opera where lines are sometimes blurred. Of course a police officer wouldnt do something like that but Rambo probably would. Who do people like better? Mr. Cop or Rambo? Both are on the side of good somehow but the badass character alway is more popular.

King Scrapper
07-10-2012, 11:01 AM
I think what tchocky360 and King Scrapper are talking about isn't so much about what makes a person a face or something beyond a face. I think it's just a matter of defining the term "face". Like tchocky360 said "Heroes vs Villains story, and wrestling is pretty much a constant running version of that" Cena is a face just as much as Sheamus. Cena is the classic "hero". He stands for what is right and good, while taking the highest road possible. Sheamus also stands for what is right and good, but is willing to take whatever means he can to get there. Sheamus is following a path closer to an anti-hero. Stone Cold fit that role perfectly and Punk was riding it last summer. Just because he doesn't follow the highest path, doesn't mean he's evil or bad. It just means he's taking an alternative route. Sheamus is a more "realistic" hero and Cena is a more "fantasy" hero. Sheamus has flaws while Cena doesn't.

I don't think we can just say "Oh, they're not a face because they don't always do the right thing!" It's not so clear cut. We don't scream "Oh, he's not a heel because he got a clean win!!" because that would be done. Just because your good, doesn't mean you ALWAYS have to act good and the same goes for the bad guys.

That's my 2 cents.

Blinker, you're wisdom is unmatched. Thank you.

tchocky360
07-10-2012, 11:14 AM
But it doesnt have to be that my dear friend. There is no law that wrestling has to consistently be heroes vs villains or bad vs good. Wrestling is a male soap opera where lines are sometimes blurred. Of course a police officer wouldnt do something like that but Rambo probably would. Who do people like better? Mr. Cop or Rambo? Both are on the side of good somehow but the badass character alway is more popular.

Wrestling is a lot like a soap opera, but it's very comic bookish as well. Especially in PG era, they set up good vs evil in every match. It's rare to see face vs face one on one in WWE for this very reason.
Nearly every tag match is divided between faces vs heels.

There can be violent heroes, Rambo and the Die Hard series are like that, those guys kill massive amounts of bad guys, not because they enjoy it, but because they have to in order to protect innocents from harm.
My crux is that the method they do this is important, it's how the two sides are separated.

You wouldn't describe Rambo as a murderer like you would an evil man because of this very reason.

A soap opera will have a bad guy littered among the many people just trying to get by in a day to day life, but WWE set their opera up in a world of heroes and villains, so how the good and bad act is important in this world that they created.


A wrestling example would be use of the turnbuckle.
Guys undoes the protection to use it as a weapon, he's a bad guy.

But, if the other guy sees what he has done, and then uses it himself to win the match, he's used the villains weapon against him.
The bad guy loses because of a bad action that he did, and all is well with the world again.

LostOmega
07-10-2012, 11:36 AM
The WWE has this problem with turning all of their biggest stars into faces whenever people start loving them. People loved Sheamus as a hell, they made him a face. People loved Cena as a heel, they made him a face. There's a pattern and it's annoying. Personally , I can't stand Sheamus as a face. He just seems so fake amd cheesy. The only time this pattern was reversed was Daniel Bryan's heel turn.

K2Jelly
07-10-2012, 12:09 PM
I have a theory:

Established Moveset + Face Turn = BORING!

Examples of wrestlers of fall victim to this theory and are immensely hated by the IWC: Sheamus, CM Punk, John Cena, Zack Ryder, Randy Orton

Cabers
07-10-2012, 01:35 PM
Well i'll be a son ama gun!

LegendsMadeWrestling
07-10-2012, 02:13 PM
So whatcha gonna do when pg mania runs wild on you brother!

Change The Channel or Don't watch it at all

Blinker
07-10-2012, 02:32 PM
Blinker, you're wisdom is unmatched. Thank you.

HA!! Thank you kind sir! :D

Kenny Kaos
07-10-2012, 06:05 PM
Despite CM Punk being a face and having a move set I still like the guy. Granted, he is a little more watered down as a face but he is still one of if not the best "wrestler" on the WWE roster right now