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tommy1983
11-05-2010, 08:04 AM
After growing up watching WCW and seeing guys like Hogan, Nash, Macho man, Hall, Flair, Goldberg etc etc etc tear down the house wherever they went and seeing factions like NWO run riot and destroy anyone in their path it makes me kinda sad to see the state that wrestling has become,

Its all very well bashing guys like Hogan and Flair for sticking around so long but lets face it is there really any alternative??

I'm lost trying to think of a solution to get the "good old days" back and quite frankly the products we see now are, well, bollocks in comparison,

Anyone got any good ideas how we can replace these stale products with something we look forward to watching every week again???????

vbirwin
11-05-2010, 08:50 AM
Off the top of my head:

Get rid of the PG rating and get the edge back.

Push guys with talent. That means equally spotlighting smaller guys who can really wrestle instead of just pushing the big guys or the older guys.

Likewise, get the dead weight off TV. Get rid of the bad workers regardless of their size, looks, or tenure.

Use the older guys more wisely by having them put over the younger guys or be mentors as opposed to hogging the main event spotlight.

Get more people in the championship mix instead of the same 4 guys week after week.

Push the women's division, but push women who can actually work not the women who look good but can't wrestle.

More wrestling, less soap opera. How about 4 wrestling matches in the first hour of a show as opposed to two short matches and 45 minutes of drama and chatter.

Less PPV's. People can't afford them all and there isn't time to build to make them special.

Bring back Tag Teams in a prominent role.

Give titles other than the Champoionship more prestige and importance so we can care about the guys holding those belts again.

Of course having reviewed this list I don't see any of these things happenning in the near future.

Tell em hawk!"
11-05-2010, 09:07 AM
I have been a fan of wrestling since 1991 and I am sorry to say that I dont even watch it a lot anymore, i have not watched an episode of raw or samckdown from start to finish in over 5 years and a lot of it is because the story telling oin the matches is almost non existant. Now, I know that everything does change and evolve and I am not pining for the good ole days but is any one else tired of the silent crowds and piss poor story lines that gives an hour and a half of backstage segments and about ten minutes of wrestling? I grew up as a kid watching quality wrestlers like : Hennig, Hart, Steamboat,Michaels, Rude,Jake Roberts and Savage to name a few and it seems that today's "superstars" have no clue how to capture the emotion and drama within a match except a few who are either retired or have died. I have hundreds of old matches/events on tape from the Big two companies and I get more excited and into the match then I have since about 2003!!!

PersonalPet98
11-05-2010, 10:52 AM
Yea, i don't think the teens and 20 something remember how good wrestling used to be, instead of this watered down reality show version we get today. The action is super weak, the "new superstars" are lame. Only one's that are impressive is C.M. Punk and Ziggler. And that Scottish kid is totally lame. The chosen one my ass. I really like Vladimir Koslov, but talk about misuse of an asset. Smackdown is at least watchable at times. RAW and TNA are barely worth watching 10 minutes out of two hours. Although I do tune in to see how fine Tara(formerly Victoria) and Madison Rayne are. All we're getting are quick short practiced terrible matches who gets a thumbs down in my book.

TJHawkesybaby
11-05-2010, 11:09 AM
Yea, i don't think the teens and 20 something remember how good wrestling used to be, instead of this watered down reality show version we get today.

Not lookin for a fight dude, but im 23 and ive sepnt most fo my life cathin up on raaaaastlin that i was born to late to watch when it happened! and still do to be honest! but yeah i agree som "young buck" dont know there born, but dont generalise :) thanks! But yeah i agree with the points in your statement!

Xpacfan
11-05-2010, 12:58 PM
I don't consider TNA stale...just young. The best that can happen for either organization is for them to produce another group of charismatic superstars like The Rock, Stone Cold, Undertaker, DX...etc.

More specifically in the case of the WWE, they need to drop the PG stuff, book better matches and rivalries, push the right people, and give their superstars room to use their own personal creativity to entertain fans. That's something that the attitude era had that this one doesn't...most of the Superstars are just acting out a character they are assigned to by the creative team instead of highlighting/exaggerating some portion of their own personality. CM Punk is an exception to this.

IPEEINTHESHOWER
11-05-2010, 01:13 PM
Off the top of my head:

Get rid of the PG rating and get the edge back.

Push guys with talent. That means equally spotlighting smaller guys who can really wrestle instead of just pushing the big guys or the older guys.

Likewise, get the dead weight off TV. Get rid of the bad workers regardless of their size, looks, or tenure.

Use the older guys more wisely by having them put over the younger guys or be mentors as opposed to hogging the main event spotlight.

Get more people in the championship mix instead of the same 4 guys week after week.

Push the women's division, but push women who can actually work not the women who look good but can't wrestle.

More wrestling, less soap opera. How about 4 wrestling matches in the first hour of a show as opposed to two short matches and 45 minutes of drama and chatter.

Less PPV's. People can't afford them all and there isn't time to build to make them special.

Bring back Tag Teams in a prominent role.

Give titles other than the Champoionship more prestige and importance so we can care about the guys holding those belts again.

Of course having reviewed this list I don't see any of these things happenning in the near future.

Please allow me to give my infinite wisdom on this matter. First I think your forgetting its no longer pro wrestling its pro rasslin A.K.A sports entertainment.
1 point) PG isn't going away, its here to stay and I don't think its necessarily a bad thing if done right.

2 point) if you don't have talent or sell shit you will not get a push

3 point)bad workers don't make it to the big time and if they do, they don't last

4 point)established guys make you watch longer and you know what your going to get

5)maybe some talent really isn't good enough to be in the championship spotlight. When the lights are shinning bright, most people fail

6)I LOVE HOT WOMEN, I don't give a shit if they can wrestle or not. LET THE PIGEONS LOOSE

7)Once again its sports entertainment, not pro wresting anymore

8)PPV are special and people will pay for them if you give them a reason. creative needs to be creative

9) very few people give a flying shit about tag teams. This isn't the 80's anymore.

10)I can probably count 5 rasslin fans in the history of the US or intercontinental championship belt that actually gave a shit about them or who wore them.
I should be a http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRAnfX4Xk-kq2NV_XgjDBByoPfRxTbEDRYh3KoDqDih3ytLipM&t=1&usg=__VTmHk4E1JnAI3bw-l2xf_roj1ak= or am I.
U MAD???

SaberToothTigerz
11-05-2010, 01:16 PM
ipeeintheshower made an interesting point specially number 6 lol

Xpacfan
11-05-2010, 01:47 PM
Please allow me to give my infinite wisdom on this matter. First I think your forgetting its no longer pro wrestling its pro rasslin A.K.A sports entertainment.
1 point) PG isn't going away, its here to stay and I don't think its necessarily a bad thing if done right.

2 point) if you don't have talent or sell shit you will not get a push

3 point)bad workers don't make it to the big time and if they do, they don't last

4 point)established guys make you watch longer and you know what your going to get

5)maybe some talent really isn't good enough to be in the championship spotlight. When the lights are shinning bright, most people fail

6)I LOVE HOT WOMEN, I don't give a shit if they can wrestle or not. LET THE PIGEONS LOOSE

7)Once again its sports entertainment, not pro wresting anymore

8)PPV are special and people will pay for them if you give them a reason. creative needs to be creative

9) very few people give a flying shit about tag teams. This isn't the 80's anymore.

10)I can probably count 5 rasslin fans in the history of the US or intercontinental championship belt that actually gave a shit about them or who wore them.
I should be a http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRAnfX4Xk-kq2NV_XgjDBByoPfRxTbEDRYh3KoDqDih3ytLipM&t=1&usg=__VTmHk4E1JnAI3bw-l2xf_roj1ak= or am I.
U MAD???

Said like a true WWE mark. Because everything is just simply "flawless" with the WWE's approach to things, right? I didn't see one statement saying that there is any need for improvement. If you believe there isn't, my initial accusation is dead on.

I think you write things because you amuse yourself or for shock value. Dude, you're way off base when it comes to 9 and 10! Some of the best heavy weight champions are those who excelled on the mid-card level. The IC belt division is the best way to gage the talent on that portion of the roster. Also, some of the most talented wrestlers have came out the tag team division: Shawn Michaels, Triple H, The Hardy Boys, The Dudley Boys, Edge and Christian, The Motor City Machine Guns, etc. For you to make those statements alone shows you know little to nothing about PROFESSIONAL WRESTLING. As far as PPVs goes, the issue of having 2 of them a month is that everything on the weekly programming becomes all about building up the matches that are going to be on the next PPV event...not investing time and creativity into the actual weekly shows themselves.

btw, no you would not make a good lawyer

IPEEINTHESHOWER
11-05-2010, 02:09 PM
Said like a true WWE mark. Because everything is just simply "flawless" with the WWE's approach to things, right? I didn't see one statement saying there is any need for improvement. If you believe there isn't, my initial accusation is dead on.

I think you write things because you amuse yourself or for shock value. Dude, you're way off base when it comes to 9 and 10! Some of the best heavy weight champions are those who exceled on the mid-card. The IC belt division is the best way to gage the talent on that portion of the roster. Also, some of the most talented wrestlers have came out the tag team division: The Hardy Boys, The Dudley Boys, Edge and Christian, The Motor City Machine Guns, etc. For you to make those statements alone shows you know little to nothing about PROFESSIONAL WRESTLING.

btw, no you would not make a good lawyer

Well, Hello SPRINKLER A.K.A. Xpacfan. First if your going to post something post it and dont delete part of it. Put your big boy pants on and let someone comment on your views.I never said everything in the WWE was http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcT7ezUAWselR0IYRBN_f_YkSzzzwTrUQ CvI5OM6WmGtz5e7C0c&t=1&usg=__NK_cSFTh71z56a5i5JMys-HyqYM= I was just stating a different opinion. I believe you need to put on your http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcT5AOeTj-Ja74oNsSHr0nyxEi1BPBdKFGXNNwQNx74VDudcqbk&t=1&usg=__zxFp6yUOfOxqRUmAISf749aYhb8= because I stated creative needs to be more creative.
Thank you for taking the time to read my post. You are right on one thing, I don't know jack shit about pro wrestling, my infinite wisdom is on pro rasslin. U MAD???

Xpacfan
11-05-2010, 02:17 PM
Really? Out of everything I addressed about your previous statement, you merely choose to defend yourself saying "creative needs to be more creative"? If anyone needs glasses, its you because I responed to way more than that! "Creative needs to be more creative" is only you stating how the WWE can make having 2 PPVs a month more acceptable. How can you give people a reason to watch when the build up to each PPV is 2 shows prior to it? 2 weeks= 2 Raw episodes + 2 Smackdown! episodes! That's a poor build up and the WWE knows it, that's why they have all of these gimmick PPV now and less variety!

IPEEINTHESHOWER
11-05-2010, 02:26 PM
Really? Out of everything I addressed about your previous statement, you merely choose to defend yourself saying "creative needs to be more creative"? If anyone needs glasses, its you because I responed to way more than that! "Creative needs to be more creative" is only you stating how the WWE can make having 2 PPVs a month more acceptable. How can you give people a reason to watch when the build up to each PPV is 2 shows prior to it? 2 weeks= 2 Raw episodes + 2 Smackdown! episodes! That's a poor build up and the WWE knows it, that's why they have all of these gimmick PPV now and less variety!
http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSQjlHBuG2pkiGLHp_j88_Lh2dy2-G88PCJpUDqgiFioGEpUog&t=1&usg=__QokUYQmfZ4ZsXcLKnmHxDaTLIVI=

if you havent noticed bright guy
http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcS54oTrdltj-Snvj6VlHhbip7SBuXHf-1g4DMbK7LfERA11pK4&t=1&usg=__LJEQPC6Clw4sz1JHy32KqOt_T04=
U MAD???

Xpacfan
11-05-2010, 02:40 PM
I think you write things because you amuse yourself or for shock value.

^ Take your own advice and get a pair of glasses

Rich Cranium
11-05-2010, 02:58 PM
Get rid of guest hosts.
Hire Lita.

This would already be a huge improvement

Bodom
11-05-2010, 02:59 PM
Get rid of guest hosts.
Hire Lita.

This would already be a huge improvement

Hiring Nacho Libre would be a good start too.

SaberToothTigerz
11-05-2010, 03:12 PM
Hiring Nacho Libre would be a good start too.

nuff said.

Rassling_Fan
11-05-2010, 03:14 PM
More specifically in the case of the WWE, they need to drop the PG stuff,

PG is not a problem. If done right, PG is great. The Golden Age of Wrestling, which was before the 90s, was PG. Batman: The Animated Series and Animaniacs, cartoons people still enjoy today, was rated PG. And you know what's a good wrestling organization that's also PG? Chikara! (http://www.chikarapro.com/) No blood, no garbage wrestling, and frikkin funny parody moments all in ring!

And one thing that bothered me about your quote...


give their superstars room to use their own personal creativity to entertain fans. That's something that the attitude era had that this one doesn't...
So Charles Wright was really a pimp, Sean Morley was really a porn star, Stevie Richards was all about censoring and Mae Young was a sex fiend? The only exceptions in the attitude era was Rock, Austin, and Triple H. Everyone else was given characters they had to work with.

Bodom
11-05-2010, 03:19 PM
Morley wasn't a porn star!? Heresy!! Burn the witch!!

Kidding. You're right about PG. A PG product can be damn entertaining, it's just the writing that defies physics by both sucking and blowing

SilverGhost
11-05-2010, 03:25 PM
"Creative needs to be more creative"

Yup. Thats what they need to do.

Xpacfan
11-05-2010, 03:27 PM
PG is not a problem. If done right, PG is great..

I hate this statement...its so cliched and backwards! WWE and so many other organizations changed what it meant to be a wrestling fan so much in the late 90s and early 2000s that there's no way to take it back to being PG and it being right! You don't create something edgy and controversial then all of a sudden make it kid friendly again and say that there is a "right" way to do this while maintaining your previous fanbase. They are clearly trying to change their fanbase and do not care about retaining any of that they may have gained in the attitude era. The WWE definately has the laurels to rest on in order to do this and get away with it. There is no right way to go PG and maintain an older audience after giving us years of an edgy product!


So Charles Wright was really a pimp, Sean Morley was really a porn star, Stevie Richards was all about censoring and Mae Young was a sex fiend? The only exceptions in the attitude era was Rock, Austin, and Triple H. Everyone else was given characters they had to work with.


No, I'm not saying that any of these individuals were really who they protrayed themselves as in the ring, but they simply highlighted parts of their own personalities to better bring the characters to life. They used their own "swagger" if you will...

IPEEINTHESHOWER
11-05-2010, 03:30 PM
sucking and blowing

what about happy endings????


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=btheeIEDIrE

TNA 'The very best'
11-05-2010, 04:27 PM
Not lookin for a fight dude, but im 23 and ive sepnt most fo my life cathin up on raaaaastlin that i was born to late to watch when it happened! and still do to be honest! but yeah i agree som "young buck" dont know there born, but dont generalise :) thanks! But yeah i agree with the points in your statement!

I'm 22 and i totally agree, i been watching since late 90's and i hate the watered down version, the attitude era brought me in and now i have to watch this crap.

SaberToothTigerz
11-05-2010, 04:28 PM
I'm 22 and i totally agree, i been watching since late 90's and i hate the watered down version, the attitude era brought me in and now i have to watch this crap.

u dont have to watch it if u dont wanna.
the company seriously could care less about the ppl who turned against it.

TNA 'The very best'
11-05-2010, 04:34 PM
u dont have to watch it if u dont wanna.
the company seriously could care less about the ppl who turned against it.

Might be crap in my opinion and not as good as the attitude era in my opinion, but i still love it, and i will still watch it.

SaberToothTigerz
11-05-2010, 04:36 PM
Might be crap in my opinion and not as good as the attitude era in my opinion, but i still love it, and i will still watch it.

wwe had the pg stuff back in the 80's and turned to tv 14 never loose hope
maybe in a few years time he could get a better era when all these new wrestlers get well known to the business and have already sacrificed alot for it.

TNA 'The very best'
11-05-2010, 04:41 PM
wwe had the pg stuff back in the 80's and turned to tv 14 never loose hope
maybe in a few years time he could get a better era when all these new wrestlers get well known to the business and have already sacrificed alot for it.

Heres for hoping, and its not even the PG so much, its just the lack of decent wrestling matchs nowadays.

SaberToothTigerz
11-05-2010, 04:46 PM
Heres for hoping, and its not even the PG so much, its just the lack of decent wrestling matchs nowadays.

with time wrestlers improve their in ring skills just look at cena
when he first came to wwe all he had was endurance then the fu then the stfu and now he has a somewhat of a decent package of movesets even though u could hate him, u cant deny that.
Same goes for every other wrestler, now with new talents like daniel bryan u cant possibly assume wwe is that bad making matches.

TNA 'The very best'
11-05-2010, 04:52 PM
with time wrestlers improve their in ring skills just look at cena
when he first came to wwe all he had was endurance then the fu then the stfu and now he has a somewhat of a decent package of movesets even though u could hate him, u cant deny that.
Same goes for every other wrestler, now with new talents like daniel bryan u cant possibly assume wwe is that bad making matches.

The guys arent to bad, altho there are some that are awful, i mean the last time you saw a wrestling show, with 2/3 hours of pure wrestling, long matches getting the crowd going with clean finishes, i know i haven't. granted i dont watch everything but i haven't even herd of something that good in a long time,

Rassling_Fan
11-05-2010, 04:53 PM
I hate this statement...its so cliched and backwards! WWE and so many other organizations changed what it meant to be a wrestling fan so much in the late 90s and early 2000s that there's no way to take it back to being PG and it being right!
There is. When all those old fans who grew up become non-existent and this current generation becomes the new IWC.


You don't create something edgy and controversial then all of a sudden make it kid friendly again and say that there is a "right" way to do this while maintaining your previous fanbase.They are clearly trying to change their fanbase and do not care about retaining any of that they may have gained in the attitude era.
If you didn't noticed, these ratings were almost the same when WWE was the only game in town still in the attitude era. Where are those so called fans? Where were those fans between the "official end" of the attitude era in 2001 to when it gone PG in 2008? My sources, here. (http://www.100megsfree4.com/wiawrestling/pages/wwf/wwfraw.htm) The object of making a good business is to appease to a new crowd every generation. If they fail to entice new people, they will fail.


The WWE definately has the laurels to rest on in order to do this and get away with it. There is no right way to go PG and maintain an older audience after giving us years of an edgy product!
Over 50 years of wrestling and the attitude era was only 5. Guess what they were before 1997.


No, I'm not saying that any of these individuals were really who they protrayed themselves as in the ring, but they simply highlighted parts of their own personalities to better bring the characters to life. They used their own "swagger" if you will...
And how can you tell they're not doing that now? I'm pretty sure Lance Storm wasn't boring as he was forced to portray.

SaberToothTigerz
11-05-2010, 05:03 PM
The guys arent to bad, altho there are some that are awful, i mean the last time you saw a wrestling show, with 2/3 hours of pure wrestling, long matches getting the crowd going with clean finishes, i know i haven't. granted i dont watch everything but i haven't even herd of something that good in a long time,

maybe the reason matches dont last long is because wwe has to follow up with their limited time schedules?

IPOOPINTHEBATH
11-05-2010, 06:37 PM
Please allow me to share my eternal intellect. I like the edge better than the PG crap, but I agree that it can be done right. Currently, it's not being done right. It's not really even the fact that it's PG, it's that it is directly marketed to kids. I remember years ago seeing PG episodes of Smackdown where you'd still see a Bra and Panties match and hear the words ASS and DAMN. You see that stuff on other PG programming now. The big 'E is alienating anyone who's balls have dropped. Even before the "PG Era" you didn't (or at least I didn't) go around flaunting to be a wrestling fan, because it's generally considered a childish thing by those not willing to view it objectively. It's way worse now, and I'm older now so even more so.

TNA at least has the edge I miss, and while I think the matches are far and beyond WWE's for the most part (although, their match quality has seen a decline in recent years) but they don't have the production value, polish, and writing that WWE does. At the bottom line, I watch more for the matches and storyline takes a back seat, but both are still important and one can help make up the shortcomings of the other.

Ah, PPVs. I feel like 8 a year is the perfect number, and the price needs to come down. With UFC as competition, sometimes the day before, they need to realize 50 bucks on a PPV that could end up being balls (I'm looking at you HIAC) is far too ridiculous. I'm a fan of the 4 big PPVs costing $40, and the minor 4 costing $30. This gives RAW and SD more time to extend feuds (and title runs, more on that later). It forces creative to take things slower, have to plan further ahead, and ultimately put more effort into a product that is going to be better in quality. It seems like crack addled ADD chimps are writing these storylines sometimes. I will say the Nexus storyline is probably one of the best written storylines since, oh I don't know, the brand separation?

Title runs, much to short these days. I remember when it seemed like Kurt Angle would never lose the title. I remember waiting for my friend to tell me the next day at school the results of the HIAC with Kurt, HHH, The Rock, Stone Cold, Undertaker, and Rikishi(lol). I was a "mark" at the time and was SHOCKED that Angle retained. I hated him, but I started respecting him after that. THAT IS HOW YOU BUILD A SUPERSTAR. You make them seem larger than life and unbeatable. They hold their title FOR A LONG TIME. So when they do lose it it's a surprise, and you gain respect for the person that knocked them off the top. And also, more clean finishes please. DQs and interference lose their meaning and shock value when it happens at least once an episode.

Sorry for the long post, it's my first one and I've pretty much lurked these boards (I'VE BEEN WATCHING YOU ALL) since they went up. Figured it was about time to say something.

TJHawkesybaby
11-05-2010, 06:48 PM
Please allow me to share my eternal intellect. I like the edge better than the PG crap, but I agree that it can be done right. Currently, it's not being done right. It's not really even the fact that it's PG, it's that it is directly marketed to kids. I remember years ago seeing PG episodes of Smackdown where you'd still see a Bra and Panties match and hear the words ASS and DAMN. You see that stuff on other PG programming now. The big 'E is alienating anyone who's balls have dropped. Even before the "PG Era" you didn't (or at least I didn't) go around flaunting to be a wrestling fan, because it's generally considered a childish thing by those not willing to view it objectively. It's way worse now, and I'm older now so even more so.

TNA at least has the edge I miss, and while I think the matches are far and beyond WWE's for the most part (although, their match quality has seen a decline in recent years) but they don't have the production value, polish, and writing that WWE does. At the bottom line, I watch more for the matches and storyline takes a back seat, but both are still important and one can help make up the shortcomings of the other.

Ah, PPVs. I feel like 8 a year is the perfect number, and the price needs to come down. With UFC as competition, sometimes the day before, they need to realize 50 bucks on a PPV that could end up being balls (I'm looking at you HIAC) is far too ridiculous. I'm a fan of the 4 big PPVs costing $40, and the minor 4 costing $30. This gives RAW and SD more time to extend feuds (and title runs, more on that later). It forces creative to take things slower, have to plan further ahead, and ultimately put more effort into a product that is going to be better in quality. It seems like crack addled ADD chimps are writing these storylines sometimes. I will say the Nexus storyline is probably one of the best written storylines since, oh I don't know, the brand separation?

Title runs, much to short these days. I remember when it seemed like Kurt Angle would never lose the title. I remember waiting for my friend to tell me the next day at school the results of the HIAC with Kurt, HHH, The Rock, Stone Cold, Undertaker, and Rikishi(lol). I was a "mark" at the time and was SHOCKED that Angle retained. I hated him, but I started respecting him after that. THAT IS HOW YOU BUILD A SUPERSTAR. You make them seem larger than life and unbeatable. They hold their title FOR A LONG TIME. So when they do lose it it's a surprise, and you gain respect for the person that knocked them off the top. And also, more clean finishes please. DQs and interference lose their meaning and shock value when it happens at least once an episode.

Sorry for the long post, it's my first one and I've pretty much lurked these boards (I'VE BEEN WATCHING YOU ALL) since they went up. Figured it was about time to say something.

*clap* *clap* *clap*

Top post!!!

My sentiments pretty much exactly!

Rassling_Fan
11-05-2010, 07:06 PM
I remember years ago seeing PG episodes of Smackdown where you'd still see a Bra and Panties match and hear the words ASS and DAMN.

PG Episodes of Smackdown during the Attitude era? I think your memories aren't that clear, but everything else is true that.

IPOOPINTHEBATH
11-05-2010, 07:30 PM
I'm talking between 2001 (when I started watching, and yes I've mostly caught up on wrestling history) and 2005. IMO, the Attitude Era ended shortly after the Monday Night Wars did. It is quite possible my memory is hazy, but I thought I recalled seeing that stupid little PG in the corner, at least on occasion.

IrkenInvader
11-06-2010, 05:53 PM
The only good thing right now is Orton.